One Baptism or Two?

A caller to yesterday’s broadcast suggested that both water baptism and spiritual baptism were necessary for salvation. With this as his premise, he wondered why Paul used the phrase “one baptism” in Ephesians 4:5. If you missed the broadcast, you can listen to the conversation here.

Paul does have it right. There is only one baptism that saves. To the surprise of many, it is not water baptism. To the Corinthians who wrestled with this very question, Paul was very clear concerning water baptism: “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17).

The Holy Spirit is the One who regenerates us and baptizes us into the body of Christ. This means we have been baptized, or placed, into Christ’s death, burial and resurrection according to Romans 6. It also means we have been added to the church as members of Christ’s body. Though we are many, Paul wrote, we form one body.

There are many people in this world who have been baptized in water. Simon the Sorcerer was one such person. Luke recorded in Acts 8 that Simon believed and was baptized. Did this act save him? Of course not. He went through the motions in hopes to add to his mystic and his financial empire. Peter called him out saying that he was still captive to sin. Water baptism didn’t change his heart. Just because someone has been baptized in water doesn’t mean that person is saved.

However, when it comes to spiritual baptism, here is a claim that is true. Everyone who has been baptized by the Spirit of Christ into the body of Christ is saved. John the Baptist said it best; “I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mark 1:8). It’s the “one baptism” by the Holy Spirit that matters. Let’s rejoice together in His work.

Please note: I reserve the right to delete comments that are offensive or off-topic.

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183 thoughts on “One Baptism or Two?

  1. Bob I was listening intently to the answering of this caller. He seemed to be fighting for an agenda rather than for clarity. I think at that point there is a stalemate situation. I have tried to have discussions with others over the years more from a Catholic persuasion or Pentecostal point of view yet it all boils down to legalism. The last church I attended did not teach water baptism as part of our salvation but I did not see the emphasis on the one Baptism being that of the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. The one Baptism in Acts chapter 2 I believe, the context started in Acts 1, has all to do with Salvation of he believer being Baptized into the Body of Christ and is followed to the 3,000 being baptized that day in verse 41. Tradition teaches this to be water and this is where most confusion for the “Two” Baptisms comes from for many. Most churches put almost a legalism to the water baptism though almost to an insisting you do it. The confusion of two baptisms as well as the taking of communion would be better understood if the “Full Gospel” were taught instead of the half gospel that most have heard. The Holy Spirit leads us to all Truth including its understanding. Most will testify that this process is not always clear because of our wanting to use the human reasoning of our natural minds.
    As we Trust God and live thinking with the New creation these issues that seem to stir battles within will fall and truly then we will enjoy walking and waiting for His return in Freedom.
    The issue of Baptism(s)has stirred much in difference over the years. The “One Baptism” is as important an issue to understand as is Life, Grace, Faith and all that pertains to God. It is not a mystery at all because of the indwelling presence of God.
    An added note to ponder: The Great Commission… baptizing all.
    Is this really water or does it have more to do with ‘Being a Voice’, a vessel of God choosing, making disciple by proper leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit of all that God is and wants to be.

    • The Body of christ was not known about in acts 2. So how could people be baptised into it?? The Body of christ was not revealed until the mystery was given to paul.The body of Christ was contained within that mystery.

    • Whether or not the caller had an agenda, he brought up an interesting point. If Paul talks about “one baptism” in Ephesians 4:5, then why the water baptism at Pentecost, and also after Peter witnessed the conversion of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10:44-48)? The significance of water baptism is one of the root causes of confusion in Christendom today. Does one get immersed or sprinkled? Do you get water baptized as a child or as an adult? Is water baptism a requirement for salvation or church membership? It goes on and on and so does the denominational division that comes with it.

      I think Scripture makes it very clear that water baptism has no place at all in this age of grace (1 Cor. 1:17, for example), even if it is used to simply represent a testimony of one’s faith. Although some churches stop short of saying that water baptism saves an individual, they do imply that it is the final stamp of approval for the expression of one’s faith. I don’t know of anywhere in Scripture where water baptism is to serve as an outward expression of one’s inward belief for members of the body of Christ.

      The confusion, I believe, stems from what many view as the significance of Pentecost. Were Peter, the rest of the twelve and those converted at Pentecost really members of the body of Christ? From Peter’s salutations to the crowd, not once does he include Gentiles. It’s always “Men of Israel…” But later according to Paul, who constitutes the body of Christ? Jews AND Gentiles. And you would think that if Peter understood the gospel of grace at that time, he would have exclaimed the good news to his hearers. But he didn’t. Rather he condemned them for what they did to Jesus and demanded they repent and be (water) baptized, so that they “shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). If being baptized and receiving the Spirit were one and the same to Peter, then why would he say that receiving the gift of the Spirit was something that followed being baptized.

      It’s important to recognize that the message brought forth by the Old Testament prophets, taught during Jesus’ earthly ministry and continued by the twelve in the early part of Acts was directed at the nation of Israel, which was to bring that message to the Gentiles. Yet, churches today continue to try to make all three applicable to the body of Christ. For us as members of his body, we need to put a greater emphasis on the epistles of Paul, who was the first to make reference to the body of Christ. In Ephesians 3, Paul repeatedly talks of the mystery that was imparted to him by the ascended Lord, a message that had been hidden in previous ages. If it was hidden prior to the Lord’s revelation to Paul, then how could Peter be speaking of it at Pentecost, years before Paul had even been converted? In fact, although Peter may have gotten a firmer grasp of gospel of grace brought forth by Paul in his later years, Peter admits toward the end of his life that there were things in Paul’s epistles that were still hard for him to understand (2 Peter 3:15-16).

      And if Peter and the twelve were preaching the same exact message as Paul, then why the disputes (Acts 15) and eventual split (Gal. 2) between the two parties?

      This isn’t to say that we’re to toss out the Bible, outside of Paul’s epistles, for all of it is written for our learning (Romans 15:4). But it’s in his writings from which we are to acquire the doctrine for our salvation through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4), and specific instructions for daily living.

      • Deron why do we assume that on the day of Pentecost this Baptism was one of water. To assume it is ‘water’ when there is no mention of going to the Jordan for this it only says “those who heard the word were baptized”. The context of which starts in Acts chapter 1 “John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit”. This has lent to much of the confusion today.
        I appreciate your post and making some of the distinctions that you have laid before us. Yet the problem with the ‘confusion’ that surrounds and is amid the body of Christ with two baptisms or was Peter talking to ‘men of Israel’ or ‘Gentiles’ lies with the fact that people are getting saved and right off from the beginning of there placement in the body by the Holy Spirit there is no proper Discipleship being promoted by the Church.
        We are given the Great Commission by Christ “to go into all the world “Baptizing” them and we again assume ‘water’. Is this water?
        By its very definition we can only assume that the new convert is to be immersed ‘Baptized’ into all that God has commanded, through proper Discipleship. Why do we assume this to be water?
        It all comes down to being led by the Holy Spirit in your new creation into these TRUTHS that are in the written word. He is the TEACHER and if the Body of Believers today are not allowing themselves to taught by Him then the confusion will remain. Yes we thank God for ministries PTP and others who are TEACHING revealed TRUTH of the Holy Spirit and the written WORD. We as the Body of Christ have to TRUST the Holy Spirit to verify,the TRUTH.
        This is a great subject as you can see though it a vast sea of understanding with many points to ponder. Thank You for all who are investing time to discuss them and Praise to God for the TRUTH.

        • Brett
          where does it say ‘Great Commission?’ Jesus also said that those that are not baptised will not be saved (mark 16:16-18). So faith is merely not enough. Jesus also said in that commission these signs shall accompany them that believe: casting out demons in jesus name,speaking in new tongues, picking up serpents(which a pastor back east just tried and failed miserably), drink deadly poison, and lay hands on the sick and they will recover(not maybe). Why is this not occuring today (even though many claim that it is)? This commission puts a lot of emphasis on the believer today and makes one vet themselves and question if they are even in the faith. How can anyone truly rest in the finished work on the cross if they are not experiencing these things? Or did something change since this commission was given? I say that it did change with the administration that was given to paul (ephesians 3:1-12,Galatians 1:11-12f).

          • Rick the term Great Commission is just a publishers sub note title to the section in which what forever pastors and commentators have given reference which I am sure you are aware of. The term baptize in Mark 16 is only in reference to one hearing the gospel and believing resulting in a baptism. As far as the picking up of serpents,drinking of the poison not being effected,the laying on of hands of the sick and them recovering and the speaking with new tongues will have these as signs follow them.They have and do occur depending on where they happen and if you’ve witnessed them. Because you have not does not attest them having not happened. These signs, except for picking up serpents I can personally testify to there being done by those who believe. I have over the years met and talked with those that did attest to the picking up of serpents. These items you point out do not in any way give a positive or negative validation of the believers resting in the finished work of Christ. Christ said they would happen and they do yet I do not see where these things are the determining factor for faith. Rick if you have vetted yourself by these signs and determined to not be in the faith, who is the arbiter you or the Holy Spirit? We must also remember that the reasoning of the natural mind and its inability to flush out the truth of scripture sets itself against the Truth which only come through the Holy Spirit in the mind of Christ which is the mind of the true Believer.

          • I guess that pastor that got bit and died didn’t even have the faith of a little mustard seed? I,on the other hand, will wait for the millenium when its safe to do so.

          • Rick I do not know of this pastor you speak yet I do not see this example having any validation of his faith a little mustard seed or any other type. The example God gave us was that of Paul when he reach into stir the fire. I do not look at example like this Rick for proof or validation of faith because all it proves that my eyes are not Christ rather on men.This example is one action this man made with the end result being death. Again this does not define faith “assurance of the thing hoped for with the evidence not seen” Heb.11. How many opportunities does anyone, you or I know Rick, to pick up a serpent or drink any deadly thing? Yes I realize the reports over the years of people being poisoned with drinking something or from snake bite are available but how many are dealing with issues of faith and common sense? I would say there is a better way to determine one’s mustard seed faith or faith for anything the Holy Spirit whom you follow from the New Creation as the author and finisher of my faith Christ Jesus lives through me. My faith or anyone’s faith should be that God who started this work in me will finish it and not if I pick up serpents,lay hands on the sick or any other sign that might follow me as Christ allow me to experience His living through me.

          • come on now Brett, nothing like what was going on during jesus earthly ministry and what followed for a period of time is going on today…jesus told his disciples that they would do even greater works than what He was doing. no way are these things occuring like that today…Not that God is not still doing miracles, but what we saw during the preaching of the kingdom gospel has not been continued due to israel’s unbelief and their being set aside until we the gentiles have fully come into the body of christ(romans 11:25).this all was a mystery until it was revealed personally to paul by the resurrected christ (galatians 1:11-12). we are justified by faith alone apart from works of the law according to paul (romans 3:28) and Christ was raised because of our justification (romans 4:25).
            The things you are talking about leaves one to doubt of these promises by paul if one is not experiencing the command that jesus had given in (mark 16:16-18). If paul and the gentiles, such as cornelius in acts chapter 10, did not experience the same thing that the jews experienced , the jews would never had accepted them as being indwelt by the holy spirit as peter says in acts 10: 45-47 .That is why paul says in 1 cor 1:22 jews seek signs and greeks wisdom.
            Peter,still operating under the law because it was still unlawful for a jew to enter the house of a gentile(acts10:28) also says they needed to be water baptised. verse 47. So it was water baptism that peter and jesus were talking about..
            during this current administration, under paul’s gospel (romans 16:25),we are told to walk by faith and not by sight( 2cor5:7).

          • Are you saying Rick that we need water baptism after the Cross as a part of our Salvation?

          • no way mate because paul isn’t saying it (1cor1:17).
            we are justified by faith alone according to paul.. water baptism has no part in our salvation.. i am saying that peter and the 12 were still operating under the law and they were using water baptism.. re-read the verses i put to you…peter says it was unlawful to go into the house of a gentile.(acts10:28). jesus had not given them the full message of the cross yet.. if he had , then why were the 12 still operating under the law in the book of acts?? in fact paul had to rebuke peter in galatians 2:11-12. in fact peter was afraid of james and the men from jerusalem.. i was just pointing out to you that peter and the 12 were still usingwater baptism.. paul only used it briefly according to 1 cor 1:12-17. hebrews 9:10 talks of the ceremonial washings…it was all under the law.

        • Thanks for your post, Brett. Sorry for the delay with my response. In regard to your questioning of Peter baptizing with water, I don’t know how you can look at a passage like Acts 10:44-48 and say that he didn’t baptize with water, verses 47 and 48 in particular. And if there was no water baptism commanded by Christ in the Great Commission or involved at Pentecost, why would Peter all of a sudden water baptize these Gentiles?

          • Ahhhhh wonderful,,, i thought something was going on wrong with my eyes or my King james and NASB bibles had inserted the word WATER in verse 47…so you saw see too then .. great…

          • Deron thank you for your thought out reply. The reasoning behind my questioning the use of the word ‘water’ is this. In Mark 17 Christ High Priestly prayer Jesus speaks about sending those commanded in the Great Commission out into the world as He was sent by the Father “as You sent Me into the world I also have sent them”. Christ used no water rather baptized his follower, including the Disciples,immersed them in all that the Father told Him to say. We are to go into all the world doing the same as the Matthew 28. Where we see the use of water with the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 and the Gentiles of Cornelius’s household these were public testimonies among other believers not attached to their salvation. There is only one Baptism attached to a believer’s salvation and that at conversion by the Spirit translating the person into the Kingdom of Heaven out of the kingdom of darkness. I appreciate your thoughtfulness in giving your reply. God Bless

      • Derron, I like waht you have to say here, can I add one thing, you said death, burial, and ressurection, and i agree with you, I would like to add and ascencion, for without this the holy Ghost would have bever came Christ said this in John 16, thank you for yuor incitefulness you inscribed here
        Howard

    • Interesting discussion you guys are having. It seems that all three of you agree that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Certainly Peter did not understand all of the ramifications of the Gospel the day of Pentecost. That was the day the Spirit was given.

      The question I raise is this: does Peter’s lack of understanding have anything to do with the formation of the church of the body of Christ? None of us knew anything about the body of Christ at our conversions. We later found out that we were baptized by the Spirit and placed into the body of Christ. I don’t think Paul understood totally what happened to him at the time Ananias laid hands on him and then baptized him? But was he added to the body at that point? Or was it later when the mystery was revealed?

      Just some more questions to consider.

      • Bob
        great to hear from you, we have met a few times before out here in arizona and maybe even colorado at one of the conferences at The glenn.
        i believe it was later, as paul still baptised a few people himself. he even reached into the fire with that serpent and shook it off but later in corinthians he said these signs will pass and he had infirmaties that weren’t healed… i think it is part of his progressive revelation that he passed on to us..we don’t understand things fully at first and yet slowly we learn and our minds are renewed day by day.. i did not understand the importance of paul’s ministry and the differences between what christ preached and Paul preached. for instance: matthew 6:14-15 and ephesians 4:32.. and mark 16:16-18 with 1 cor 1:17. i later realised that jesus taught under the law for jew only mattew 10:5-6 ,15:24 , galatians 4:4.. the 12 knew him according to the flesh up to the cloud whereas paul knew him from beyond the cloud…paul says in 2 cor 5:16 we no longer know Him after the flesh. i will leave that for now.hope to hear back.
        Icabod (thanks brett)

      • Hi, Bob. Yes, we definitely do concur that water baptism is not necessary for salvation. And while I agree that most of us didn’t know anything about the body of Christ at our conversions, there are some who, with proper instruction, DO understand that they’ve been baptized by the Spirit and placed into the body of Christ the moment they are saved.

        I’m not sure I understand your question regarding Peter. I don’t think Peter understood the ramifications of the Gospel that was given by the ascended Lord to Paul, and the one we know today, because he didn’t even know what the full gospel of grace was. And that’s no slight to Peter; he wasn’t expected to know it because it wasn’t given to him. Peter and the twelve were all about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, even after the resurrection (Acts 1:6). If Peter understood the “good news” significance of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, and that we’re now redeemed by His blood, why didn’t he impart that to his hearers at Pentecost? Instead, he came down on them for crucifying Jesus (Acts 2:36) and commanded that they repent and be water baptized for the remission of their sins, in order for them to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). Does that sound like the Gospel we put our faith in today? Of course not. We’re simply called to believe what Christ did on our behalf, dying for our sins and being raised from the dead so that we may have everlasting life.

        And Peter certainly didn’t have a clue about Jews and Gentiles being baptized by one Spirit into one body, as Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12:13. It’s apparent that Peter, a law abiding Jew, still struggled with the notion of even associating with Gentiles (Acts 10:28), and this was about 10 years after Pentecost. After Peter’s experience with Cornelius, relations between believing Jews and Gentiles were still strained for at least another 10 years after that, when the Jerusalem Council met in Acts 15 to debate whether Gentiles should have to keep the law. And despite the Council reaching an agreement that Gentiles are no longer under the law, they still split with Paul and Barnabas, with both parties agreeing to go their separate ways (Gal 2:7-9). Why did this happen if Peter, James, John and the Council had a significant handle on the gospel of the grace of God and were in one accord with Paul? And although Peter may have had a clearer picture of the mystery toward the end of his life, he admitted that he still had a hard time understanding some of Paul’s writings (2 Peter 3:15-16).

        As far as when Paul was added to the body of Christ, it had to have been after his conversion, when the mystery was completely unfolded to him by the Lord. And that’s the key difference between Paul and Peter. The mystery was revealed by the ascended Lord to Paul, and Paul alone (Gal 1:11-12). Those who followed Paul would be added to the body through faith in the finished work of the cross and the resurrection. Paul also stresses that this mystery, which includes the doctrine of the body of Christ, had been hidden all the way up to the point when Jesus revealed it to him (Eph 3:1-9). With that being said, could Peter, the twelve and the 3,000 have known what the body of Christ was or been added to it at Pentecost if it had yet to be revealed?

        • In fact paul had very little to do with the 12…. they had nothing to add to what already was given to him directly from christ himself..gal 1:12,15-16 ,19 gal2:6… in fact some of the converts of paul’s gospel, a woman named priscilla and aquiala heard apollos (a jew ) speaking about the kingdom gospel , they had to explain the way of God more accurately to him acts18:24-26

        • and hence only thru Paul’s gospel do we see the finality of the cross. the full meaning of the cross, just like the body of christ,and the mystery ,rapture, etc were not known until Christ revealed it to paul by Christ himself.

      • Bob you are exact on the money yet Paul who was Saul was missing for a long time in the Arabian desert, being taught and as i remember Bob George’s teaching on this, and still today makes sense.
        Where it was put this way as Paul was facing Jesus in the Desert Jesus asked Paul (today you) turn around and see the chalk board behind you, take that eraser and erase all you learned from birth in the flesh to today.
        Then pck up the chalk and lets get started, this is the mystery since the beginning.
        This ministry has been the start of my new life, many years ago, and I thank God for you all here in springing me forth from the foundation that I am past tense forgiven c omplete the day I received Christ as my Savior unto the Father of all, being careful of how I build
        Howard

  2. What else are you saying here Rick about the signs that follow those who believe. I am not sure what the point is that you are wanting to make or find agreement with. I guess if we sat down and had a one on one conversation and testimony time we could see where each of us was coming from or out of.

    • I am saying that those signs were all in accordance with the kingdom gospel john 4:48. that gospel has been set aside due to israel’s unbelief. romans chapter 11.. god started a new program under paul. ephesians 3:1-12, 1 cor 9:17. the word is dispensation. household management. God took paul to sinai or mt horeb gal 1:17 and gave him a new management plan. The mystery. he did not reveal this to the 12 who still thought jews were numero uno.now jews and gentiles ar alike now in this dispensation.. look at what jesus said to the syro phoenician woman when he called her a dog. the children were israel9mark7:24-30.. gentiles were cut off from God.john 4:9. matthew 10:5-6 ..God’s covenant was with israel. jeremiah 31:31-34.

      • Rick I must have missed one of your post where you confirm that baptism is not attached to salvation. I guess you are saying then that there is just one.
        Do me a favor though I am not understanding your post ” i am saying that peter and the 12 were still operating under the law and they were using water baptism” Where? In Acts? I am under the understanding that after they, the 12, were directed not to leave Jerusalem but wait for the promised Holy Spirit on Pentecost. The Church was given birth on Pentecost and the Gospel presented to the Jews in the upper room that day would be the same one Paul would preach as the Apostle to the Gentiles. Right. Where are the 12 operating under the Law and still ceremonially washing? Or was this prior to Pentecost? In Acts 10 Peter if you recall was corrected by the Spirit about going to the Gentiles in his vision. That’s what prompted him to go was that he stood corrected and I would have to think the other were corrected also. One other thing Rick the original 12 were,as I, growing as they went and having to die to the flesh and learn to live from the inside out instead of always trying to reform it. I haven’t met many believers steeped in theology that live as such. Talk about confusion in the church today start with man’s attempt to explain and understand God, theology. God Bless you Rick as you go and grow.

        • Brett read the first 10 chapters of acts and pay close attention to who peter is talking to and notice they were still going to the temple and were not associating with gentiles. in fact if peter knew the full meaning of the cross why then was he telling the lord that he will not eat any unclean foods?? its all jewish until paul is converted. we tend to not read critically. so much of this stuff i read before many times and never noticed the differences.

          • What’s the point Rick? Peter has a vision and accepts an invitation to Cornelius’s house and the Gentiles hear the Gospel and get saved. There’s nothing in chapter 10 to make me take notice except Peter and others are doing as directed from Acts 1:8. If you check your theology Rick it is sometime referred to Apostolic progression. Jerusalem, Judea, Sumeria (sp.) then to the utter ends of the earth. Most people of these regions that Peter would have talked to are going to be brethren but you will notice that God deals with his flesh since he is now filled inwardly with the Holy Spirit that is leading and teaching him which should also be our testimony. Again Rich what the points you are trying to make. You also have to remember that Paul has just been saved in Chapter 9 and will spend a great deal of time before he goes up to Jerusalem although he was preaching the Gospel to all he met. I will say here that these things we are discussing don’t really have anything to do with ” Baptisms One or Two” or do they? It is a good debate though, Calvinist or Armenian? Baptist or Pentecostal? These two groups usually argue from these to theological perspectives.

          • i must have missed something when peter says it was unlawful for jew to enter the household of a gentile. This after jesus commanded to go to jerusalem , judeah and to all nations. Then they 12 gave paul the right hand of fellowship yet they remained with the jews (galatians 2:9)..The Bible teaches this. i have not given you any quotes from men, i have given you scripture.. it is clear in scripture that the 12 were still operating under the law. as i have pointed out before paul rebuked peter in galatians 2:11-12.. its clear scripturally the 12 were still were operating under the law…

          • No Rick they were not. They were filled with the Holy Spirit were only doing what they had been directed by Jesus. Acts 1:8. They all met in the Temple daily because they could and were allowed to although it aggravated the hierarchy. No Rick your are not quoting men yet where is your understanding being produced. I have read Acts 1-10 several more times to see if I could glean where your coming from to state that these 12 were operating under the law. They had no other place to go and most they consorted with were the Jews and other God fearing Gentiles along the way. No Rick these were not doing nothing other than modern day believer will do when they fear their fellow man yet does not God deal with these as He did the 12. The 12 yes had developed a wrongful fear of this man Paul but it was confronted by Barnabas. Paul and the 12 then spent much time together,right. Anybody can quote scripture Rich that does not mean at all they are rightly dividing the Truth that can only come by way of the Holy Spirit of which has never entered your response just your reasoning which I am questioning. Where does your understanding of all the scripture you use to post such as you – “12 were still operating under the law and they were using water baptism.” Again where does your understanding derive its source. It is not the coming from the “mind of Christ” for He does not teach this its only how you have reasoned this. The 12 were all saved and they operated with this understanding “for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (Romans 8:1). Yes as with you these 12 could set up legalisms that produced hindrances.
            As for Ephesians 4 and Matthew 6 What is your point here although Matthew 6 still falls under the Law which the Jews were under and the forgiveness of Ephesian 4 is strictly New Covenant as to how the Believer is to treated each other with the Life of Christ living His Life through you and me. What is your point Rick you feel its being left out here or we still under Matthew Chapter 6 in our Christianity.

          • Pardon me Rick you said 10 chapters of Acts. But again what’s the point. Peter was sent to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. His audience would be,in Jerusalem and Judea,Jews. As you will attest to is that there were Gentiles who would hear the Gospel and respond. Still keep in mind the context for chapter 1-8 is established in Act 1:1-8. Paul converts in Chapter 9 yes he went about preaching Jesus Christ to all he met yet we are informed that he went into Asia Minor or Arabia for a period of 3 years where he was taught by the Holy Spirit (Gal.1:17) and since you insert theology into the discussion check your source you will see he,Paul, spent nearly 14 years in the dessert. Again Rick what’s the point and what am to pay close attention to here in the first 10 chapters. Acts 1 Luke states that the apostles received order from Jesus about the Holy Spirit and where they were to go after this promise was realized. Acts 2 is all about Pentecost, Peter’s sermon and the birth of the Church. Acts 3-5 were primarily about the acts of the apostles as they went from Jerusalem into Judea and through Samaria and yes they were baptizing along the way not for salvation but public proclamation of those receiving Christ. Acts 6 we see the addition of Deacons to help with the business of the Church serving one another while the apostles stayed on preaching and teaching the Church. Acts Chapter 7 we see Stephen’s trial and death. Acts chapter 8 we are introduced to Paul as the persecutor of The Church and in Chapter 9 we see his conversion. All the while Peter has gone from Jerusalem down to Samaria and is on his way back to Jerusalem Where he will be corrected by God about some wrong attitudes he displays. ON and on. Again Rick what am I suppose to be tuning into? And again what this got to do with “Baptism – One or Two”?

          • By the way Rick you made a statement about the apostles being under the Law where do you come up with thinking? It apparent its not from the Holy Spirit because the apostle were in Christ saved no longer under the Law. Where does scripture point this out? This kind of statement comes from the natural mind the flesh. The mind of Christ does not reveal this. I appreciate you as a Brother Rick but where are you coming from the inside or the outside. Saying the apostles were operating under the Law (Rick:” 12 were still operating under the law and they were using water baptism”.) Again what church teaches you this?

          • By the way Rick we do agree that Matthew 6 is still Old Testament or Covenant and Ephesians Chapter 4 is New Covenant for the New we know does not take effect till Resurrection two-thirds the way thru each of the synoptic Gospels,right.

          • i must be missing something cuz peter did not want to go to the gentiles and that was all the way to acts chapter 10.he even said it was UNLAWFUL in vers 28 to go into the home of a gentile… there were no gentiles, unless they were prosolytes, in the first 10 chapters of acts… there were jews all over the roman empire that still came to jerusalem to sacrifice.the were jews at pentacost with possibly some proselytes.. now how would peter say “i most certainly understand now that god is not one to show partiality” acts 10:34??.how could peter say this if he had seen gentiles being indwelt by the holy spirit at pentacost back in acts 2?? they were jews at pentacost… what you will see is a shift towards the gentiles in the book of acts.transition.
            you still haven’t told me if there is a difference between matthew 6:14-15 and ephesians 4:32?

          • So what does that prove Rick? Peter has a form of legalism that he like you or I can put in front of following God who lives inside. You live out your now existence Rick from the new creation or are you still trying to give the old school boy try through transforming the flesh or do you even know the difference? Brother you are missing something here and if we stay patient with each other here God may straighten it out. He is the only one who can. Is Peter a believer Rick while as you say “operating under the law” or am I missing something?

            They did go to Temple daily and where breaking bread with in houses. Rick where in the chapters prior to Acts 10 does Peter say he does not want to go to the Gentile or refused to go to them. That statement in vs. 28 is only a front as Peter encounter the servants of Cornelius, right, because he does not refuse them because of a law rather points out being corrected by God. Invites them to stay overnight and leaves to and goes north the next morning all of them together.
            By the way Rick there is an answer to you Matthew 6 and Eph 4 question but at the moment we must stay off that rabbit trail till we gain clarity from God on the previous question that you have not answered and there are still several if you go back and look.

            Rick all who Peter spoke to were not proselytes were they? We don’t know. We only know they were “residents of Jerusalem”(Acts 2:14 or the fact he acknowledges Gentiles in Acts 2:38. When he spoke to the Brothers he stated Jews… In Acts 2:22 “People of Israel” did not just refer to the Jews or proselytes only. Rick you can not put something in scripture that is not there less you have been taught this way. Jesus did not teach anyone this about Peter period.

            Is there other translations you read that this is in the scripture? Maybe the book of Mormon or the New World translation. I do not find this in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, or some of the new reliable translation newer english translations or even one that I use is Hollman Christian Standard translation.

          • it proves that Peter and the 12 were still under the law and jesus never told them during his earthly ministry that they were no longer under the law…gal 4:4-5 jesus born of a woman under the law so that he might redeem them(jews) ,matthew 10:5-6, jeremiah 31;31-34.. jesus earthly ministry was under the law, He taught under the law for the nation of israel. his promises and covenants were with israel… now paul is saying we no longer know Him according to the flesh 2 cor 2:16..water baptism was under the law… now that paul has been sent by the resurrected christ from beyond the cloud , He has revealed to paul everything the cross has accomplished…

          • Rick are you saying that Peter and the other 11 did not realize that the was fulfilled in Christ and that it was only revealed to Paul?

          • i will let peter answer that question himself
            when he was writting to the jews 2 peter 3:15-16

  3. This has been a good discussion… no i dont think we are in the new covenant. i think we are benefactors of the new covenant.. new covenant was with israel and obviously we are not living in that period. peace on earth good will towards men etc. when jesus taught it was under the law for the jew. when paul taught it was under grace jew and gentile alike…..

    • Rick thanks for the discussion very sharpening. You are the second JW that has presented this same material thanks for revealing where you are coming from. I will not attempt to answer or refute any more of your doctrine now that is is clear where you source the argument and your points. The questions from Matthew 6 and Ephesians 4 has no point to answer it and you’ll have to get a keen questioning period with you spirituality group at the meeting place. May God reach through to remove the scales from your eyes. Thanks for the discussion. come on down to Dallas to Metro Bible fellowship some time with Bob Christopher and we will continue this discussion.

      • sure next time i’m in dallas , but you have already answered my question.. i dont need Bob christopher. i will just use my bible..2tim 2:15

      • JW ??? is that an acronym for jehovah witness??? I believe as it says in Titus 2:13 our great God and saviour jesus christ.. a jehovah witness would not acknowledge the Lord jesus christ as God in the flesh… i think you just need to study more brett.. you seem to ignore things that are plainly there… This deron feller has noticed it as well…its not about winning the argument, it’s about arrivin at truth and havin our minds renewed day by day..

          • keep readin mate,, just keep readin your bible…no wait ,keep readin a king james or a NASB bible….don’t let bob christopher interpret it for you..

          • Rick you would do well to follow your own word. I do not read KJ or NASB I do use Hollman CSB but it does not matter which we read though. Bob Christopher though is a friend but not my pastor I have met Him but he’s not my teacher. I live out of the New Creation with the Holy Spirit living in me as a New Covenant Believer. I can also use capital letter where proper in God,Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit. It would have been nice in this conversation we had if you could answered questions posed to you rather than just throwing out more irrelevant opinions just to gloat about your agenda about the 12 being under the law and Paul the only one that had incite to the mystery that he got from be hind the cloud. But anyway I’ve met several several over the years like yourself who are speaking blindly from the cloud you mentioned and not with the mind of Christ. Have a great day sell a big house make a great commission make a better buy at the store.

  4. so yes i think the mystery was a progressive revelation for paul. he spent time at mt Horeb. i believe it took many years before his ministry got going into full swing.he had very little to do with the 12. he even returned home to tarsus for a spell.. imagine that,,he was excelling in his religion and becoming a prominent religious leader and God slaps his religious butt back all the way to his parents home in tarsus..

    • Rick,
      I have purposely stayed out of this debate until now. I did not want to pile on. However, I would like to state one thing about water baptisim. Water baptism is an ordinace of the church. It IS NOT a testimony or sign to God in the lesst, it is for a testimony to the believers in the body of Christ. Baptism is an external demonstration of a believer to show to others what has happened on the inside by the work of the Holy Spirit. Again not unto God but man and IT IS VOLUNTARY. The only baptism that carries any weight with our God is the baptism by the Holy Spirit when at conversion we are immersed into the Body of Christ, the church. God Himself initiates this and we have nothing to do with it. Yes ONE baptism unto God and ONE symbolic baptism unto other believers initiated voluntarily by the believer. A note to Deron, Brother man has perverted the ordinance of water baptism and made it something in some places what it was never intended to be.

      I do not know who has taught you or where you have gained your understanding. It seems to me you are crediting Paul with ushering in the New Covenant. Jesus Himself through His Death and Burial ushered in the New Covenant. Paul was converted shortly after the resurrection on the road to Damascus. The church certainly was known by Acts 2 because Actswas written as early as 62 A.D. and as late as 70 A.D.

      ANY teaching (ACTS – REVELATION) was done AFTER the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of our Lord. The Coptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) did not contain any teaching of the desciples only Jesus teaching was under the LAW. No water baptisms that testified to the work done by the Holy Spirit were done under the law.

      Brother Rick, always keep in mind when handling the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) teaching upto the point of the Resurrection was under the Law. For example in MAtthew 6:14-15 Jesus was teaching that unless one forgives as the Father forgives it is not forgiven – no one could live up to that requirement. In Ephesians 4:32 ‘as God in Christ has forgiven you’ is totally New Covenant because it is AFTER the resurrection and Christ has made believers a new creation. Jesus kaid down His life for us in orfer to give His life to us inorder to live His Life through us. As new creations by the iniation of God Himself we can fulfill Ephesians 4:32.

      • not saying that paul ushered in the new covenant… have you read the new covenant that God made with israel? i think we agree that we are baptised into the body of christ by faith not water…i just dont see in any place in paul’s gospel(romans 16:25) that was given to him directly from christ(gal 1:11-12) that water baptism has any relevance for us since it was part of the law(hebrews 9:10). i have tried to explain to you, and whomever else may be reading, that peter and the 12 were water baptising because they were still operating under the law. that is plain by reading the firdst 10 chapters of the book of acts. There was no direction to stop doing so. enjoyin the discussion.
        Icabod

        • Rick,

          I have read the entire thread! Brother you are all over the place and refuse to answer direct questions. IT IS NOT Paul’s gospel IT IS the gospel of Jesusthat Paul calls his. I do see your rendering of Scripture lacks understanding from the Holy Spirit. You do seewhat is printed on the page BUT the Holy Spirit has not given you the ‘understanding you put forth – it lacks. Please read 1 John 2:27. What is this Icabod junk? Do you have a theology degree from some cemetary? Are you Baptist, a Calvinst? Just what is your identity?

          • as for identity , there is only one identity for this current dispensation and that is a member of the body of christ. as for Gospel, it is the gospel that was given to paul directly by christ which he calls his own romans 16:25 given to him directly from christ gal 1:11-12.how many other apostles call it their gospel?? . as for 1 john 2:27,,, we still are taught by men,,, you and i have probably learned some by bob george or bob christopher and there may be instructors in schools or suunday schools etc.. ultimately we do learn by the holy spirit. i am gonna see if any others are going to respond to these posts today.

    • Rick, Brother Please tell me where you derive the Apostles were operating under the Law. They were chosen by Jesus yes before the crucifixon but were sent out AFTER the resurrection – New Covenant. Your understanding is not orthodox at all.

      One more thing Rick righteousness, holiness, justification, and sanctification were ALL imputed at Conversion in the resurrection Life!

      God Bless,
      Brad Heath

      • brad, have you been reading any of the previous posts?? i have given you many verses to look at… maybe your version of orthodox needs to be re-examined.. i am not tryin to win an argument with you.. we understand what the cross has done but that understanding came thru paul’s gospel.

        • Rick,

          All any man can do is tell you what the bible says. Let every man be a liar and only God be true (Romans 3:4). The Holy Spirit is the ONLY ONE that can give you understanding form God’s view. Man is not the teacher; he is an instructor. Man can ONLY understand if God opens the eyes of his understanding.

          I am not my brother. Please keep us seperate Brother. I do not appreciate you stooping to pronounce Icabod on me or my comments. Please concur and discuss as an adult. Oteher wise stay off this blog as a courtsey to the sincere.

          Please answer this queastion.
          Who preached and whos gospel led 3,000 souls to salvation on the day of Pentecost? Please answer before proceeding.

          Paul? No Paul’s Gospel was to the Gentiles after 33-34 A.D. Paul was NOT given any different gospel than were the 12 Apostles. Paul’s gospel was his in the sense that it was through Paul to the Gentiles not a Gospel specific to Paul; it was no different that the Gospel Peter, James or any other Apostle had. The Gospel is the Gospel. Most Churches of today do not preach the full Gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Most preach the death on the Cross and the forgiveness of sins and a ticket into heaven. They preach that a believer must keep asking God to forgive their sins in order to keep their account clear.

          • obviously brad you have not read any of the previous posts and your here only to interject yourself and your personal thoughts….it was your brother who labled me Icabod… do some reading before you start talking.. that is why god gave you two ears two eyes and one mouth..finito

  5. its not at the cross that we see justification by faith alone. we see it thru paul’s letters.. the point of this discussion has been about this…if it were at the cross then why was pater and the 12 still operating under the law?? i keep re-iterating this point to you..the bible makes it quite clear that this was the case…
    Icabod….

    • Get iver it Rick.

      You need to answer the question How many Gospels are there. What is the difference between the Gispel the Apostles like Peter used verses Paul’s Gospel and/or the Kingdom Gospel? How many Gospels are there?
      By the way Rick I HAVE read everything but I can make errors… I AM physically BLIND. Give me a little slack. Sorry for my error I saw Icabod in one of your replys to me. BTW my computer reads to me.

    • Rick I am pasting your Icabod comment aimmed at me. Brother you did stoop low and were childish toward me, you are forgiven however.
      Rick Hakes
      August 6, 2012 at 4:40 pm # its not at the cross that we see justification by faith alone. we see it thru paul’s letters.. the point of this discussion has been about this…if it were at the cross then why was pater and the 12 still operating under the law?? i keep re-iterating this point to you..the bible makes it quite clear that this was the case…
      Icabod….

      Do you see it?

        • Brother IT IS IN YOUR POST I COPPIED! I certianly did not put it there GO read it yourself. BTW, I have read all of your scriptures and u show a TOTAL LACK OF UNDERSRANDING! Go a head and keep trusting man and your own intellect Rick. I am sure there is a good reason ‘our intellect’ has to be renewed by God! Selah!

          • Brad
            Why dont you take each verse i and the other gentleman deron have listed and enlighten us all with your thoughts??

  6. Rick one last comment to you. By the way Deron is not a party to my comments to you. Deron is and has not been addressed.
    Rick you by your own adnission are only teachable by men. Therefore you are UNTEACHABLE by God and I am not going to discuss with you any futher. Any man who believes in multiple Gpspels is in the dispensational period of ‘ignorance gone to seed.’ You need help and understanding form the Holy Spirit.

    • i guess you must of missed where deron says that the gospel that peter preached was not the same as the one paul preached ??

      • The day of Pentecost is the day of this new covenant to be revealed not by man, but by God through man. The day that 3 thousand were saved was by the Holy Ghost through the Apostles. They knew law prior to this they were taught by Jesus after his ressurection, for forty days explaining all things and why this had to be. Pentecost came and went. The devil went to work trying to detour man back into his own ways using flesh, to kill, steal and destroy. The Disciples were no longer under law via Holy Ghost, Saul who became Paul later on explained all this better than anyone else. including there is only one baptism
        Love you all, read my blog and my post below, lets not argue over disputes on doubtful things, whether they taught under law or not after their conversion, that is not an eternal issue the eternal issue is are you, I or anyone here saved, Are we born again in the Spirit of God then lets not argue over what the disciples did or not, the truth made it through we are saved by grace, building off the foundation of Christ crucified as Paul explained to the Corinthians that had misunderstood the truth as you claimed the disciples also did. None of us are faithful and see clearly, but God while we were all yet sinners, Christ died for us rose the third day to give the believer new life in Christ, the oldman crucified, but flesh does not want ot be crucified with Christ, and until yuo believe you are the flesh will continue on to beset as it did the disciples and the corinthians and and and, do you get it
        Howard

        • Yuo are either of the flesh or Spirit of God, so you are by free choice daily led by the Spirit of God or the Spirit of error from the air. God when you are born again your recreated Spirit from God through Christ are led from inside where the Holy ghost points you to all truth the truth that sets you free. Come on you all this is such a great salvation, where we had nothing to do with it, lets sit back and relax, rejoice, thank and thus see God has through Christ made us perfect and forever Holy from Father’s vantage point
          Loving you all Howard Schultz whom is homwardbound on my blog

        • i agree we are saved by faith alone but once again this is found only thru paul’s letters.. That is why it is so important to understand the differences because so many come in subtley and take us away from the simplicity and purity of being justified by faith alone. The whole reformation started because Luther rediscovered that we are justified by faith alone thru Paul’s epistle to the romans. i am not questioning anyone’s salvation.. that is a more personal issue..

          • Rick said:
            The whole reformation started because Luther rediscovered that we are justified by faith alone thru Paul’s epistle to the romans.
            Not just in the Romans, it is all over the word.
            Yes we are saved by Faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ and none other, but this has nothing to do with the 12 apostles. they were led by the Holy Spirit, from the day of Pentecost it was the Judaisers that added to the Gospel. And many other hirearchy. And Luthers address was to the Catholic Churches with 99 convictions on their theology. There are many mistakes today in the religions that have added to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do not see where they taught under law the Apostles that is. I do see where they were learning truth still as we are today, but the foundation is Christ and him crucified, and Christ came to baptize with the Holy Ghost and with Fire, no water involed here, but fire to burn out ones’ dross that is only happens upon asking, we still have free choice, so the Ghost will live in you the day you believe, but it takes you to ask for this Holy Ghost to start the kiln and burn out te flesh in you.
            I respect what you have said and i do not want anyone to subdue the Gospel, yet there were those and there are those today that act as if they believe, gaining access to the very elect and sticking them back under the law. The Apostles the 12, did not teach under the law anywhere that I found in the Bible, please give me specific scripture that says plainly they taught under the Old Covenant law after Pentecost or added to the Gospels as the Judaisers did by saying you must know be circumcised as Paul pointed out.

          • first,,nowhere in any of my arguments am i saying that anyone is not saved if they don’t agree with me..
            i will re-post it again where the apostles were still operating under the law.please look at the verses.. acts 10:28(God didn’t show peter until the vision of the sheet coming down with all the unkosher food on it.) so until then they were still water baptising,eatin kosher foods, going to the temple at the hour of prayer. Paul had to rebuke peter in galatians2:9-12 because certain men from james(an apostle who seemed to be a piller vs 9) were still operating under the law… then in acts 15:1-6 … not until peter came to paul’s defense that they succumbed to what Paul was preachin…Its quite clear they were still operating under the law..jesus had not told them(apostles) the end of the law had come.. he revealed it to paul after the ascension from beyond the cloud.the 12 knew him up to the cloud.. if jesus(during his earthly ministry) told them the law was finished then why was he having to tell peter it was ok to eat unclean foods in chapter 10 of acts?? this was after paul was called out in chapter 9…

          • also as or the 12 still operating under the law, why would peter say all the way into acts 10:28 that it is unlawful for a jew to enter a gentile household under the law if he had been given the commission in mark 16:14-19 to go into all the world and preach the gospel??

          • Rick if you read further Peter says for it is God that showed him it is okay for this to be he entered the house Acts 10:28

            28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”
            And yes Peter did nt understand the new covenant he was in, for he still to this had not understood that God has cleaned all things nothing is unclean of itself, part of Peters growth in God’s grace

          • Howard,,, its clear they were still operating under the law .. i dont need to repeat it.. the bible is quite clear on it. The 12 had a hard time with jew and gentile being alike.. after all they were to be a nation of priests exodus 19:6 unto the whole world during the millenium the kingdom of heaven on earth zecheriah 8:23..we don’t see 10 men from all different nations takin hold of a jew and saying “you know the way to God.” that jew would also need to speak in tongues to communicate it with them.. this was put on hold due to israel’s unbelief.romans 11:25 and the mystery was revealed to paul.God’s secret plan.. which he never revealed on earth..the 12 learned later at acts chap15.peter knew first in acts chapter 10 with his table vision that something was changing.. .i am gonna step back and see if others respond to some of this cuz i keep repeating much of this..i am goin outta town for the weeknd.

          • why would Paul make a statement in romans 16:25 “now to Him(christ jesus) who is able to establish you ACCORDING to MY GOSPEL and the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY? we dont see the 12 talking of the Mystery in any of their letters.. why would paul say that we are to be established ACCORDING to the gospel that He was given from Christ himself not by the agency of men galatians 1:11-12 or according to men? why wouldn’t he say according to the gospel given peter and the 12?? Paul is taking ownership of what was given to him..

          • Howard or anyone else ou there who is readin these posts
            why would Paul make a statement in romans 16:25 “now to Him(christ jesus) who is able to establish you ACCORDING to MY GOSPEL and the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY? we dont see the 12 talking of the Mystery in any of their letters.. why would paul say that we are to be established ACCORDING to the gospel that He was given from Christ himself not by the agency of men galatians 1:11-12 or according to men? why wouldn’t he say according to the gospel given peter and the 12?? Paul is taking ownership of what was given to him..

          • i would also add ,concerning james faith without works is dead, that God looks at a man’s heart whereas we see from a human perspective.. i think james is coming from a human perspective..i don’t think he is contradicting paul when paul says in romans 4;5 we are justified by faith not by works. i think people can judge and try to manipulate others into performing for them by using james “faith without works” as a way to manipulate and guilt others to actions they desire to see.. tithe would be an example for this…

          • Please Rick answer these ?,s
            ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE 12 WERE PURPOSELY UNDER THE LAW?

            aRE YOU SAYING THAT THEY TAUGHT A DIFFERANT GOSPEL, THAT HEY DID THIS ON PURPOSE?

            THAT PETER UNDERSTOOD THIS NEW COVENANT AND DID THE OPPOSITE ON PURPOSE, ALONG WITH THE OTHER 11?

          • i dont see anywhere in the new covenant that jew and gentile were to be alike..i see that in the mystery and the body of of christ.. which was God’s secret plan..i see that during the kingdom the jews will be a nation of priests unto the whole world..but this was put on hold for the last 2 thousand years..due to their partial blindness. we see a major transition in the bible after the stoning of stephen acts 7 and God taking up the meanest jew and setting him aside for His secret planacts 9 that He never revealed to anyone..

  7. This is my take on it:
    ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BABTISM
    EPHESIANS 4:5
    One Lord,
    WE have three don’t we: Jesus, The Holy Ghost and the Father. I thought there is only one God. Yet we see three manifestations of the same God. How can this be? Let me give you a physical analogy rather analogies:
    Water is one, yet there are three manifestations of water. There are ice and steam as well. This is three in one.
    An egg is another; look at an egg, there are three parts to the egg, A Schell (Jesus), a white (Holy Ghost) and a yoke (the Father of all) it takes all three to make the egg, and it takes all three to know the Father of all.
    A Cherry Pie: You can cut it in three distinct slices and the filling just flows right back together, so get the filling of all three and we now know the Spiritual reality of God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, and God the Father.
    One Faith,
    What is Faith is the first question? Can I have faith in my spouse, in my teacher, in my friend and or friends, my pastor of my church? Your answer might be yes, but is this smart to put faith in another human since you are human as well? You see we all have many faiths in someone or maybe something, a superstition, a tradition and so on.
    Now tell me if I told you that swallowing enables you to live for one needs to eat right? And if you put faith in me, you belief me, well then brother, sister you just allowed me to feed you poison and once you swallow it your dead, and this was through faith in that swallowing would keep you alive.
    You see brothers and sisters’ swallowing is not the mechanism that enables you to live, IT IS WHAT YOU SWALLOW. So now look it is not faith that enables you to live it is what you have faith in. You can have faith in anything here on earth and not one thing here on earth will enable you to live forever.
    There is only one faith and only one object of one’s faith and that is Christ Jesus unto the Holy Ghost living in you, thus you seeing the Father of all through the other two, translated through this one faith. So please take your faith out of this world, for it shall be destroyed.
    The big issue: one Baptism;
    In the Old Testament, the priest as he went into the holies of holies carrying the sins of others and his own sins, had to be baptized in water before going on into the holy of holies, beyond the curtain and with a rope in case the priest died while in there, if he was found unclean then others could pull him out of the holy of holies. There was also a prophet’s prediction of a forerunner before Jesus was to show. This was Elijah, and Elijah did show, he was John the Baptist, who had the Spirit of Elijah, but the leaders of that day did not recognize him for all they saw was physically, not spiritually.
    Now John the Baptist started baptizing in the Jordan, waiting for the Messiah to show up so The Messiah could be announced filling the Old Testament practices and predictions of being baptized before entering the holy of holies. So Christ was baptized and water baptism was now over John’s job was done, he announced the Savior has now arrived. He saw the dove descend on Jesus’s shoulder.
    So now read and find were John told the people that he only baptized with water, but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and with fire. John states he must now decrease and Christ must increase. But to this day we the people have stuck to traditions using acts to verify water baptism to get a gift as well as receive the Holy Ghost, but we never talk about the fire, only the gift, and all gifts will pass away. Now this water baptism today is used to become a member of a certain church and then you will be saved. But the other church down the block says no you are not saved unless you get water baptized in their church.
    There is only one baptism people, one and it is from Jesus after his ascension when 10 days later the disciples received the Holy Ghost and spoke in other languages of the people that were there that day, and told them about Christ, his resurrection, his forgiveness, and ascension they spoke in those peoples languages, that the disciples did not know how to speak. It was for their edification. It was not for the way it is used today, except for edifying the body, and for it to be understood by the rest of the people there as it was in the day of Pentecost.
    The one baptism that actually is real is the baptism of the Holy ghost the day you first believed read it Ephesians 1:1-13, you were sealed by God with the Holy Spirit of promise. Since you are sealed by God, the seal cannot be broken, nor anyone else. Yet some people are good at deception and cause you to think a certain way and capsulate you into their way of thinking, and then you are swallowing poison, you know the rest, wrote before in a few words.
    This baptism now is also with fire. The fires purpose is to burn out fleshly goodness you think you have from this world and its traps to deceive and make you a good little puppet. Do not get me wrong here, I am not saying become lawless, rather through this fiery baptism you are able to obey the law(s) by the Holy Ghost that has made you forever perfect in the Fathers sight. No stress, this is true rest, for now you can work hard (not hardly), with a joy that s everlasting.
    Seek ye the kingdom of God first and foremost and all ones needs shall be supplied. This is the peace beyond all understanding, that one is righteous, when even in adversity counts it all joy, knowing God has got them covered, whether going home to God or staying here a little while longer to help the brethren come to see the truth the truth that set one free.
    Sincerely Yours through Christ’s finished work at the cross, 3 days later the resurrection, then the ascension in order to supply us the believers with the Holy Ghost, the one and same Holy Ghost that led Jesus through his ministry of reconciliation. Now leading all of you who belief, now practice this daily until it is you. Practice makes habit, habit characteristic, and characteristic trait.

  8. as for the james faith without works is dead,, i would say not works of the law. if james is talkin works of the law then he was still operating under the law. according to paul in galatians , james who seemed to be a pillar galatians 2:9,had some problems with paul’s ministry.so did peter but he acknowledged what paul was writting was scriptural 2 peter 3:15-16. things that are hard to understand but scriptural..

    • RICK
      ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE 12 WERE PURPOSELY UNDER THE LAW?

      aRE YOU SAYING THAT THEY TAUGHT A DIFFERANT GOSPEL, THAT HEY DID THIS ON PURPOSE?

      THAT PETER UNDERSTOOD THIS NEW COVENANT AND DID THE OPPOSITE ON PURPOSE, ALONG WITH THE OTHER 11?

  9. Thanks for your contribution to this discussion, Howard. You brought up some good points. And that’s the great thing about forums like this; it gives believers another vehicle in which to interact with one another. With that being said, it’s imperative that members of the body of Christ encourage one another with sound doctrine. Paul talks about this very thing in 2 Timothy 4:2-5. Unfortunately, it is lacking in Christendom today, which has led to much confusion and division along the various denominational lines.

    This blog came about after a call came into the People to People radio program regarding baptism. And as I said before, the caller had a legitimate question that needed to be addressed. I’m not going to completely rehash all that I’ve said in prior posts, but I will re-emphasize that the message Peter preached at Pentecost to the nation of Israel was, “Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). Peter’s message was different from the gospel of the grace of God that Paul was later given and penned in his epistles. The “mystery” (or secret), as Paul refers to what was revealed to him by the ascended Lord, was something that had been hidden in previous ages (Eph 3:5) and was something that Peter could not have possibly known about at Pentecost. Putting one’s faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was not something that was prophesied, talked about by Jesus, Himself, during His earthly ministry or preached by Peter at Pentecost. If you can find it in any of those places, I’d be more than willing to re-examine my thoughts on the subject.

    Is making a distinction like this important? Absolutely. There are many denominations that bring baptism into this present age of grace and applying it to the body of Christ, whether it be for salvation or for simply an outward expression of one’s faith. This, as I’ve mentioned before, has been and continues to be a source of great (and unnecessary) division. And those who don’t accurately separate out Scripture as to what is meant for Israel and what is meant for the body of Christ can’t help but come to incorrect conclusions and a frustration in trying to get seemingly contradictory biblical truths to fit together.

    For example, in Mark’s account of the “great commission” (16:16) given by Jesus to the 12, he says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” What did He mean by this? It seems plain to me that, according to Jesus, believing and being water baptized were to be prerequisites for salvation…within the confines of His earthly kingdom. Does water baptism apply to us today in regard to salvation? Of course not. I’ll even take it a step further by saying that it has no place at all in the body of Christ. As you pointed out in one of your postings, it was a Jewish ritual that originated in the Old Testament. So why are we dragging it into the church today, even if it’s only for a symbolic representation?

    The terms of salvation stated in Mark’s account of the commission later fit together perfectly with Peter’s pentecostal address and were no different than the terms which were previously laid down by John the Baptist in Mark 1:4 — “John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.” All of this had to do with Christ’s earthly kingdom ministry, which was meant solely for the nation of Israel, not the body of Christ. There were no Gentiles present here and you’d be hard pressed to argue that there were Gentiles (other than Jewish converts) present at Pentecost. After the Lord’s resurrection and before His ascension, what were the 12 concerned about, “Lord will You at this time restore the kingdom of Israel” (Acts 1:6)? Jesus’ answer (v. 7) indicated that there would be a restoration in the future and that it was not a dumb question.

    Baptism isn’t the only point of contention brought about by not rightly dividing the Word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), but for the purpose of this discussion, I’ll stop here.

    • Deron than yuo got it understand it, have never truly seen it this way, but I do, and ye since we have been adopted we are adopted right? We who had no law are saved by Faith, i always hought this for the jewish race as well, for Saul was a Jew,a ns counted all the law he had tried to enforce as dung now. He also said that when he was with the jew he would be like the jew or with the gentile like them that he might win a few to Christ.Paul rebuked Peter for not eating with the gentile as he had been when Peter saw the Judaisizers he turned from the gentiles and did not want to be judged of anyone just like when he denied Christ three times. And when Peter had the three dreams and went to the gentiles, I always thought this was to be Peters’ job to go to the gentiles, Peter kept going back and forth knowing the truth and he did not step up to the plate as God had called him, yet God still loved him. So God went and Got Saul on the Road to Damascus and revealed total truth to him over a period of 14 years. The Gospel rvelation caME TO US THE GENTILES who never had the law to begin with I understand what you are saying.
      Thanks howard

  10. Yes all the posting has been great, but please can yuo all answer the ?’s I posed, motive is very important and everyone makes mistakes, always looking to be sharpened and sharpen.

    RICK
    ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE 12 WERE PURPOSELY UNDER THE LAW?

    aRE YOU SAYING THAT THEY TAUGHT A DIFFERANT GOSPEL, THAT HEY DID THIS ON PURPOSE?

    THAT PETER UNDERSTOOD THIS NEW COVENANT AND DID THE OPPOSITE ON PURPOSE, ALONG WITH THE OTHER 11?

    • Thanks for the above feedback, Howard. And now to your questions:

      1) ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE TWELVE WERE PURPOSELY UNDER THE LAW?…Yes, the twelve were still operating under the law. Upon reading further into Acts, I don’t know how you could come to any other conclusion. After Pentecost, were the twelve conducting grace-based home Bible studies? Not according to Acts 3:1 — “Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.” The fact that they were still going to temple indicates that they were still under Jewish law, and going to prayer at a specific time also confirms that. And what was likely still going on in the temple? Animal sacrifices. The truth that Jesus’ blood paid for the sins of the world wasn’t even a thought to these men at this point in time, was it? And it wouldn’t be a thought to anyone until the “mystery” was revealed by the ascended Lord to the Apostle Paul. You made reference to Peter having the three dreams before seeing Cornelius (Acts 10:9-22), which is another great example that Peter was still adhering to the law. If he wasn’t, then why would God need to convince him that it was alright to go to the Gentiles? And this was about ten years AFTER Pentecost. We even read Peter saying to Cornelius in Acts 10:28, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation.” Associating with Gentiles was not only something totally foreign to Peter, it was against Jewish law. And being a Jew, it was all he knew, going back to Jesus’ earthly ministry in Matthew 10:5-6, when Christ commanded the twelve: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’” With that being said, I can’t understand how people find it impossible that Peter and the twelve were still law-abiding Jews. If the gospel truth that we put our faith in today of believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for our salvation wasn’t even known until it was revealed to Paul, then how could the twelve act any differently?

      2) ARE YOU SAYING THAT THEY TAUGHT A DIFFERENT GOSPEL, THAT THEY DID THIS ON PURPOSE?…If Peter and the twelve weren’t privy to the gospel of the grace of God, it goes without saying that yes, they did bring forth a different gospel — the gospel of the earthly kingdom. It wasn’t as if they knew of the truths later revealed to Paul and taught a different gospel anyway. As previously stated, they knew nothing of the mystery imparted to Paul, so how could they teach it? At Pentecost, Israel was simply being offered another opportunity to accept its Messiah and become the channel of blessing to the world, which was what Jesus had commanded in the great commission. The “church” referred to in early Acts is not the Body of Christ at all, but the Messianic church to be established on earth. While the three thousand at Pentecost were filled with the Holy Spirit, it’s important to remember it was only a believing remnant of Jews and that the nation as a whole was still rejecting its Messiah. This rejection reached its climax with the preaching and eventual stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It was at this point that God set aside His prophetic program with Israel and raised up Saul (later Paul) for the purpose of revealing the mystery, which includes the doctrine of the Body of Christ. This isn’t to say that the Messianic church has been set aside for good, because it hasn’t. Once the Body of Christ is removed from the earth through the Rapture, God’s prophetic program will pick up where it left off before Paul was brought onto the scene. To repeat, none of what concerned the gospel of the grace of God, the Body of Christ and the Rapture was ever foretold in any part in Scripture until we get to Paul. I am by no means trying to elevate Paul above everyone else, but rather the message he was proclaiming and its supreme relevance for us today.

      3) THAT PETER UNDERSTOOD THIS NEW COVENANT AND DID THE OPPOSITE ON PURPOSE ALONG WITH THE OTHER ELEVEN?…Before I address this, it would be helpful to understand your definition of the New Covenant.

      • Deron, Thank you
        First verse matthew 5:17, Jesus did not come to destroy the Law and prophets,rather he came to fullfill. Then Christ did exactly this he fulfilled the law (old covenant) and the Prophets, showed this proof through mighty miracles of even bringing the dead back to life. Went to the cross (Actually a stake)where He took away the sin of the world in his Father’s sight, per John 1:29, behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Then in John 19:30 he yells out it is finished!!!!! Well what was finished? he accomplished what he came to do, he fullfilled the old covenant, and prophets, went to his crucifixion took away the sin of the whole world from his Father’s vantage point. So what took place then? A new covenant Hebrews 9:15-17, we are no longer under law of any sort, for it is by the commandment that sin takes place, and I am not saying the law is not Holy for it is Holy, just not to flesh and blood, flesh and blood can not obey, and all sin has been condemned to flesh. No flesh in Father’s sight will ever please him , For God is spirit and can only be worshipped in Spirit and truth.
        You know the whole world is redeemed, Romans 5:10
        10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
        So my belief is we are saved by the life of Christ not the death, but he death was needed for this new covenant where all sins are behingd Father’s back never to see again Hebrews 10:17. This is good news, but how does one receive this and react? Thank you Father or thanks and I am on my way outtothis world and do what I want for Father has already forgiven me. Do not use your freedom as an excuse for the flesh. Hebrews 2
        2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?
        Where our sins and lawless acts are behind his back never to see again, let none of us take advantage of such a great salvation
        WE that believe in Christ Jesus the Savior unto Father via the Holy Ghost that one receives on the day they first believe (Eph 1:13)that teaches each of us truth, the truth that sets us free, and this truth is LOVE God’s LOVE through belief in his Son’s finished work, taking away all sin in you, God the Father via The Holy Spoirit of truth, recreated you in his Spirit, that Spirit that was lost on the day Adam and Eve ate from that tree of evil masquerading as good. Today it still is in the human flesh that is, but not in the Spirit of Christ ever. Since I am in him there is no more me as in the human flesh, it is dead and am quickened by the Living Spirit of God forever as was all thosae disciples were on the day of Pentecost, whether they understood truth or not at the time is not a concern of mine, I know tha tGod himself is faithful and that is why the Gospel came to us the gentile in order to show his remnant first chosen truth, yes what you have said makes total sense, I am just being careful howthis is apllied for the devil is always out to detroy
        Thanks Brother you have helped mr see furhter down th epath
        Howard

        • Thanks again for your thoughtful reply, Howard. Question for you: How does the New Covenant you’re talking about above compare with the New Covenant prophesied about in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

          • This is the new covenant, this prophesy is also quoted in hebrews.
            Anyway I care to say what you have said about the mystery of the Gospel, and that the other 12 were still under old covenant law and that they were stuill preaching this is a good conjecture on your part. But it is only conjecture. Evidence does point that way, but you, and I or any one else here today, were not flies on the wall in the synogogue, hearing exactly what they preached about the old covenant. They were indwelt by the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, Jesus hung around after ressurection for forty days explaining to them why these things happened to him at the cross. So all in all you, I or anyone else knows not what they were saying inside the synogogue, since it appeared that they were still under law. We that I know of have no record of what they preached to their fellow jewish people. We have mostly an account of Paul who came to us the gentile preaching the good news of the kingdom, and mighty has it been, yet man has still done his best to mess even this up, through taking this for granted. Saul before Paul was a destroyer of anyone that believed in Jesus. And this i know God does not lose anyone, for Jesus even said he did not lose anyone except Judas, for what God does no man can annul. Man’s wisdom is foolishness with God
            Anyway both you and Rick have opened up a lot to me, and do see how you can come to the conclusion that the other 12 taught under the law, and yes it appears that way, but they had to grow in grace just as I do, and or you do. Thanks for the water, and the seed of this discussion, yet who are any of us for it is god that gives the increase. Iron sharpens Iron and then God shows the truth and God never lost one disciple, nor will God ever lose the Battle. Wait a minute the battle is won, Christ did it
            I am so thankful in Christ to God Christ’s Father through the Holy Ghost of truth. Putting myself in the shoes of the other twelve in that day, WOW!!!!!! I can only imagine the fear that prevailed, yet doing my best to trust God and hear the Holy Ghost in me heart leading and me fighting the flesh, trying to understand the full Gospel as Paul through God revealed. WOW!!!!! is not God amazing. I tell you the truth I can’t stop as you might have noticed. This new covenant is utterly miraculous. I did nothing, you did nothing, no one can do nothing to escape this great salvation, good or bad, preach under law preach freedom,whatever the foundation stands, just let each of us be careful how we think (build) from this foundation. It is through belief (faith) that one is saved, no wait a minute it is not that it is the object of ones faith that saves not faith of itself. So what is your faith in? What is the object of your faith, Remember swallowing will keep you alive physically right? Not true it is what one swallows that keeps them alive, I could be fed poison and die, or food and live. It is the same with whom one believes in that saves them. So watch out as you said divide the truth in the whole not parts as the devil did wanting his own flock
            Love you brother, and if there are any other topics any of you want to discuss I am open to any. Have you gone over to the blog I have been penning, I think you will see the objective way I believe not subjective as the flesh is. At least learning the differance of flesh and Spirit, conveying this ot the masses
            Howard

  11. There is more than one baptism, but the only baptism that has any effect is spiritual. It is receiving the Holy Spirit of God and being made alive. Water baptism does not do that, it is only a physical representation of the spiritual reality.

    The Law required that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, Heb. 9:22.

    When the priest entered the Holy of Holies, he first had to offer a sacrifice for his sins, Heb. 7:27. This blood sacrifice was what “cleansed” the priest that he may enter the presence of God, lest he die. But remember, the Law was only a shadow, not the reality, the reality is found in Christ.

    It is the blood of Christ, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world that has cleansed us, enabling us to be “baptized” or brought into the presence of God.

    Acts 19 records what happened when Paul found some believers who not only did not receive the Holy Spirit when they believed, they had never even heard that there was a Holy Spirit. When Paul asked them what baptism they had received, they replied, “John’s baptism.” Paul explained that John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, and that he had told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.

    On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit came upon them. They had been water baptized by John the baptist but did not receive the Holy Spirit, and thus were saved, until they believed in the name of the Son of God.

  12. Howard ,how can you say it is only conjecture? when jesus told them(disciples) in mark 16:15-20 he commands them to: baptise,cast out devils,speak with new tongues,take up serpents,drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt them, lay hands on the sick and they shall recover,(even their shadows healed people) all this Christ said and then he ascended up into the cloud . this was all said during that 40 day period.. it appears at the end of it. how can it be what deron is saying is “conjecture?”

    • Rick, apparently, there is a misunderstanding of what I wrote, the conjecture is as I am hearing that you two have been saying the the 12 were teaching under Law as pointed out what peter did, where God had to have peter have a dream to straighten him out the conjecture part is conjecturing what they taught in the Synogogue going there each day. We do not know what they preached, from your gathering of scripture I hear you saying that the 12 taught still under the law that they did not kknow the truth that Paul is the one that revealed truth. That is what I am saying, that we do not know what or how they taught after Pentecost for those 14 years, except what scripture appears to lead to, and you both have made a great point in using scripture to conjecture that they did not know the truth, when in truth they knew it, and whether or not they taught it for those missing years is not recorded, so I will just trust God knowing that God has got all under control, and I do not hear this as an eternal issue to our today ‘s salvation message Thanks Rick for your input. Lets keep the iron sharpened and grow
      Howard

      • well i believe the whole point of this discussion is one faith one baptism, but we have two different gospels that were preached.. one was the gospel of the kingdom of heaven which pertained to israel, and the other,which is our current gospel, the gospel of grace and the body of christ. jew and gentile equal(romans 11:25). God’s secret plan that He gave directly to paul circumventing the 12 and the nation of israel.. they were partially set aside in unbelief and prophecy (kingdom of heaven)has been put on hold..this gospel of the kingdom of heaven will resume after the body of christ is raptured out.. God did not directly tell his 12 apostles this . he told it to paul instead. the important thing for us to realise for now is that paul’s gospel is the doctrine for the body of christ during this period until the rapture..paul’s gospel is where we find justification by faith alone..romans 1:17 . we find the message of the finality of the cross in paul’s gospel… i realise this is something new to your ears , it was mine when i first heard it but it helped me understand the word of God so much better .. i knew there were some differences what christ preached and what paul preached for years but didn’t understand why the differences.. matthew 6:14-15,, ephesians 4:32 for one and the water baptism of mark 16:15-18 and 1 cor 1:17 for another… tithe is another issue as well..not knowing the differences and why leads to confusion for the believer and opens them up for manipulation and deception.. 2 tim 2:16..God wants us to rightly divide scripture and handle the word correctly..

        • Rick,I, from what I see is that we are rightly dividing the word of truth, to me there is only one faith, one lord and one baptism and the three things that remain are faith hope and love, everythinjg else will pass but what remains is love forever. I see all tying together to love one another as God loves you. Even before the cross; Jesus forgave sins.God from day one had Mercy and above sacrifice Mercy is required, without Mercy we are fried crispy critters. I still today only see one gospel yet many differant religions, without love,yet claining it saying there way to see, and because of this they walk subjectively insterad of objectively, I see exactly what you have said here about Paul, yet brother; love goes on forever inspite of what others do or might do or are doing. This age of grace; God’s kindness is meant to lead us to belief; it did me
          As I said before if you want to know where I am coming from read the blog I have been writing just add blogspot in the url above after the you.then place blogspot.com.
          I again do see what you are saying. I do not see or see any recording that claims that there were ever two gospels, misunderstandings yes, corrrections yes from Paul yes, whom god used, but Paul and the other disciples are nothing, except Vessels,icluding us, Clay I tell you only clay. Anyway, Peace and love to you from our Lord Jesus Christ and from the Father of Christ, now the believers Father through Christ. Thanking God for the Holy Spirit being sent t the believer before any water Baptism Ephesians 1:13, and John the baptist that said he only baptized with water but not long He Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire, today this what it is, Water baptism was over the day Christ got water baptized by John, again read the blogger I have mentioned several times this post I speak of is called one faith, one lord, one baptism
          Again Thanks Rick
          Ps, here is my conjecture since there is only one lord one faith one baptism there is only one Gospel, One foundation, and each and every believer that comes to belief becomes one with the Lord along with other brothers that believe as well. 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 always = 1 and if another does not come 1×0 more still = 1

  13. howard yes we are to love one another but as Tina Turner sings “what’s love got to do with it” in the sense of throwing out objective truth for the sake of just trying to love?? its almost 60s ish.. i hear this all the time now..people striving for unity .what about loving truth and understanding the word correctly???
    . 2tim2:16 say we are to rightly divide the word.. cutting straight is a better interpretation.. what is wrong with taking a brother or sister aside and showing them the word more accurately as Priscilla and Aquilla did when they pulled Apollos (a man mighty in scriptures and only familiar withe the baptism of john) aside and showed him the way of god more accurately Acts 18:23-26?these women were familiar with paul’s teaching.this also occcured durin paul’s 3rd missionary journey.appearently apollos listened.. what if he rejected?
    how could there be unity with believers such as in acts 15:1 when men came down from judea(these were believers in christ the messiah) demanding that unless you are circumcised according to the law of moses you cannot be saved?? fortunately they went to the 12 to get to the bottom of the matter and peter sided with paul acts 15:1-12. i beleive the unity for this dispensation is only found in paul’s gospel. After all kept having to deal with believers that kept coming in and confusing his converts (the body of christ) with their legalism galatians 2:11-12 .the unity was found in what paul had given them and told them to be established according to his gospel romans 16:25.. our one hope one love ,one baptism comes thru paul’s gospel.anyone that tells you something contrary to that is not rightly dividing the word or handling it more accurately..

    • Rick,thanks for your comments much appreciated. So tell me are you dividing the word of truth correctly and to who? Do you have any converts, are you looking for converts? You seem to somehow keep coming back with the same thing as if i do not see what you are talking about. Anyway, if you do not agree with me and i do not agree with you, i think it would be best to agree to disagree, I am not after to change your mind if i was then I would be living according to the flesh. So you believe what you want to believe, but Brother if you are living like a refugee behind closed doors in bondage then you are not free. It is the truth that sets one free, therefore if you, me or anone else is in bondage then ther might be error in your, or my truth and I would have to rethink truth. I thank God for this great salvation abd because of God I have been set free from Bondage, The truth has set me free, I hope the same is for you, your Spirit testifies with the Hoy Spirit of truth and the Holy Spirit testifies to God for you. And each individual knows the truth whether they are God’s or not. No matter how many think they are teachers in the word one might need to be taught all over again Read it brother Hebrews 5:11 – 6:6. When I read this I was humbled, and am still today thank you for all your input
      Howard

      • converts?? what in blazes are you talkin about lad??? i am giving scripture and trying to get you to see where the one hope one faith one baptism is.. peter and paul were not preachin the same gospel and mixing them together causes confusion and leads to disunity.

        • Rick, thanks yet I see this clearly, and however you wish to view this is your choice, There is only one faith one lord and one baptism, nmaybe you have not read my first post. I do not know how we are not on the same page, for accordingly to you, you also claim only one baptism as well, yet you are debating on an issue of Peter not teaching only one Baptism, as if he did not see the lord after the ressurection, or as if he never learned truth as he walked in it. Or as if the disciples chose against the Lord. And Brother if they did then that is on them, not me or you. Anyway I think this issue sohuld be over. We both agree taht there is only one baptism
          Thanks Howard

          • howard peter and paul were not talkin the same baptism.. peter was usin water with his. paul’s baptism was of faith that places us into the body of christ..peter’s baptism did not..they were not preachin the same gospel.. if you removed paul’s letters would not know the mystery: finallity of the cross nor the rapture and the body of christ… what most people only know is a blending together of the gospel of the circumcision(law and jew only based on grace+ performance and physical reward and an earthly reward) and the gospel of the uncircumcision( gentile and grace+ heavenly reward for a heavenly destined people.)
            this gospel of the uncircumcision is the current gospel for you and i and the jew.. after the rapture , peter’s gospel will resume becuase the kingdom will be at hand and the new covenant will be fulfilled as they(jews) will become a nation of priests to the whole world…

          • this gospel of the uncircumcision is the current gospel for you and i and the jew.. after the rapture , peter’s gospel will resume becuase the kingdom will be at hand and the new covenant will be fulfilled as they(jews) will become a nation of priests to the whole world

            Rick you are speaking of two differant Gospels, and to me there is only one,

            1 Corinthians 1

            New International Version (NIV)

            1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

            2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

            3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

            Thanksgiving

            4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge — 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

            A Church Divided Over Leaders

            10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

            13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

            Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

            18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

            “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
            the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

            20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

            26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not —to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

          • Howard,

            Rick and I agree with you that there is only one gospel in this present age of grace. But how can you possibly say that Peter and the twelve were under the same gospel that was revealed to Paul, after all the overwhelming Scriptural evidence we’ve presented to you that this could not have been the case?

          • Howard, Deron and Rick, Great conversation. I must ask though. The people responding to Peter including the household of Cornelius the number in Acts of 5000,what is God adding them to? Are these people saved by this Gospel that Peter was commissioned by Jesus to preach or do they, as the saints in sheol, have to wait till after the rapture or do they get included with the saints converted with the Gospel of Paul? Two salvation groups included in the mystery or One? Just wondering if one to testify that God brought him or her to salvation after reading what Peter preaches in Acts or what Paul brings forth in and after Acts 9, which Gospel did God lead that person to hear to salvation?

          • Brett
            this is waht I see the disciples had to wait for the Holy Ghost to indwell them. The Holy Ghost has always been around, but never indwelt any believers in the Old Testament. The day of Pentecost came and the disciples were in dwelt, saved by the gospel of Christ. Now there is only one gospel and it is of Christ period. I am not of Paul, James, John, Peter or any human beiing, There is no diversity, we are of one mind, one faith one belief.
            Paul penned an explanation a good one at that. So Did 1 John, Peter, James and the other accounts of the Gospel they all preached the same gospel. Yet it was differant to whom one would preach to. But all the same gospel from the Holy Ghost. For it is by the Holy Ghost that anyone ios ever saved period. Paul cannot save anyone, I can’t, you can’t, peter can’t, no human being can. Without the Holy Ghost there is no salvation, this is why they had to wait on high for the Holy Ghost to come John 16 does a great job in explaining this.
            You see brother all we are the ones that believe are nothing but a vessel to be used by God the Father through our free choice of this, via the Holy Ghost.
            A good ex: When you come home from work and are thirsty, you go to your cabinet and get out a glass to put liquid in it to drink right? Can you imagine that glass in the cabinet ever griping at you, saying why have you not used me for the last month, I have been sitting in this cabinet waiting, what is wrong with you?
            What is the purpose of a glass, what was it made to do?
            That is right it’s purpose is to be used whenever you decide to use it right, nothing else? So iut would be rediculous for thar glass ever to complain correct?
            In retrospect see what happened to Adam and Eve and through history to us. So now what is our purpose? What were we made for to do? As we are the master of a water glass and will use it as we wish. We were made to be used by God the creator of all as God sees fit. God is the master and we are the clay. So relax and be used by God when God sees fitto use you as a water glass is available to you through the Holy Ghost that by belief you are indwelt with the day you first believed before any water babtism read Eph 1:13 as is what happened when Peter was by the Holy Ghost preaching to the house of Cornelius, itis all one gospel and this gospel is of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost there is no other Gospel, and ther is no salvation with olut the Holy Ghost. Just be available for God the Father to use you through the Holy Ghost of truth, and even you shall be surprised to the words that come from God through you via this Holy Ghost
            Love you all here in the Spirit of truth Homwardbound I am see you there as citizens of the most Holy, being put back here as ambassadors of heaven, the righteousness, the joy, and the peace in the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost that brings salvation through you being dead to the flesh alive in God as the disciples were and are. Yet there are still tares in this world that want to usurp God through getting, you, me, the disciples, to walk in our fleshly attitudes of selfishness, wanting others to see their way, be subjective in place of objective, flesh is subjective and this is why there are so many differant denominations and non denominations. They all need to re-read 1 Corithians 3 and come to a godly sorrow in place of their worldly one. Truth is only revealed by The Holy Ghost unto you the believer. I better stop it is really hard for me to stop as it was for Paul revealing the mystery of the gospel. It is all God and none of anyone else period.

          • Howard Absolutely right on AMEN. The gospel according to and of Christ, no other. It’s not the gospel of Paul, Peter or anyone else. That is what Paul was pointing out in his epistle that those who were arguing …of Apollos or of Paul but Christ gospel irregardless who presents it.

          • i dont know why romans 16:25and 1cor 9:17 is so difficult for you both to absorb??? it didnt’t originate from paul but from christ directly to paul therefore circumventing the 12.gal 1:11-12..that is why paul called it “MY GOSPEL” we have clearly deliniated this point for you.He also to the gentiles to be established ACCORDING to MY GOSPEL… that means according to what he was preaching not what someone else was preaching…

          • Rick the question that needs to be answered are the 5000 in Acts including the Gentiles of Cornelius house are they saved? Christ Gospel or who and where did God add them to by the message given to Peter from Christ?

          • Excellent ? Brett!!!
            Rick the question that needs to be answered are the 5000 in Acts including the Gentiles of Cornelius house are they saved? Christ Gospel or who and where did God add them to by the message given to Peter from Christ?

            This reminds of there were two thiefs one on each side of Christ at the crucifixion, one said he believed the other did not, Christ said to the one today you will be with me in paradise.

            No wait a minute, the crucifixion had to be stopped, they had to pull that thief down and baptise him, make him confess to man, sprinkle him, then put him him back next to Jesus and said go ahead now he is able to go to heaven.
            NOT!!!!!!! Godcan turn these stones into jews if God so chooses. God is the master and God schooses whoever God wants throguh one’s free choice, God is no tyrant with force , Satan and the evil that impregnated us humans through flesh is of the devil and take things by force
            Thanks Brett

          • i dunno? you can ask them when you get there. the mystery had not come to them . they were looking for the kingdom of heaven on earth..that is the gospel they had been given at that time from peter and the prophets.. BTW do you mean the 3000? at pentacost acts2:41? remember peter and the 12 were promised 12 thrones to sit on during the kingdom.. you and i are a heavenly people…we have a different destiny during that period.. we get raptured first. other believers get resurrected at the onset of the millenium. in rev 20..i learned that at bible cemetary. hahhaa i enjoyed that little bob georgism too…i guess i lost my new “Icabod” moniker? but seriously have a look at those verses mate. i dont have my bible with me but look in the synoptic gospels where jesus promises them the 12 thrones for following Him. this is repeated in rev 20:3-5 i think.

          • Rick i have a many of Bob Georgisms, and I thank God for servants like Bob George, God used Bob mightily in the Help for me to be translated to God as my teacher as I was challenged by Bob many years ago to read the bible for myself and seek truth from God and God only, so I did and am still dying daily to the flesh where it started out as a new practice, which turned into a habit, them a characteristic, now a trait in God the Father through the Holy Ghost where there is no sin possible in the Spirit of truth. Where there is no more caught on a fence carried from one doctrine to another. God himself has confirmed I am his and he has got me totally covered and smothered in Him where I can rest, knowing God turns all trhings towards the good for those that are called, and I thank God that God called me, hoping that he has called all here that are listening, those with ears hear, GOD JUST LOVE YOU, no matter what you think the disciples were up to, that is God’s business not any of ours.
            So whether or not to you the other 12 were of or not of, whether there is another gospel or not is not the issue here. The issue is am I saved or you saved, are they over there saved, those things are not our concern our concern individually is am I of Christ are you of Christ. Whom am I or you to judge another man’s servant to God I or you stand or fall, I belong to God so do you, and it is God that gets me to stand and you. We are no more than just waterers or planters it is God that gives the increase. Love you all here

          • i dont know why romans 16:25and 1cor 9:17

            25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

            Where does this say they are talking about the twelve

            15 But I have not used any of these rights. And I am not writing this in the hope that you will do such things for me, for I would rather die than allow anyone to deprive me of this boast. 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

            I am seeing maybe you need to read in context the verses you are using to bring home that the other twelve were not of the gospel, for i tell yuo again they were and also I am tellinhg you it is wise for you to leave this alone from here, and read Romans 14:1 the whole chapter.

            11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

            I tell you rick, you have cherry picked verses and are making them something they do not say. Not one of then say that the disciples were preaching from the flesh that they were the culprits. Read James, read peter read john, read Jude, they al are on the same page of one mind. Nowhere has it been stated that they are not of God. I tell ytou that if the other twelve were doing as you say we would not have them in the bible,, with their testimonies.
            I know oyu are steadsfast on what oyu believe and are trying your darndest to convinve me and others that what you are conjewcturing is truth, when one reads those verses in context there is no mention that the other twelve are not of God
            Anyway thanks for your input and unopened mind, Ihave viewed your input andIdo not agree wwith you again thanbks for your input I do not need anymore
            Howard

          • You said, Rick and I agree with you that there is only one gospel in this present age of grace.

            But how can you possibly say that Peter and the twelve were under the same gospel that was revealed to Paul

            I do know they were indwelt by the Holy Ghost at the day of Pentecost, and God never goes void on God’s word, God indwelt them and it was not them that preached they were only vessels used by God to save those that changed their minds from unbelief to belief, and there was what 3,000 that day that changed their minds.
            Now I am sure Peter and the other 11 themselves were bewildered,through this day that they were indwelt by God himdself. they no longer lived they were out of the way which is what God wants for you, me and all that believe, to be out of God’s way to salvation through his Son.
            I you,or anyone else does not know what these other twelve did for the 14 years before the truth that they had through the Holy Ghost was revealed by Paul, in exposing the mystery the others already knew for they were indwelt by God, yet you are saying because of scripture that you so well pointed out that by this you know they were in the synagogue preaching law not grace. Or mixing the two, until Paul came on the scene. Now there is no recordation of what those disciples were doing in the synagogue. The recordation you point out is Peter saying it is not lawful for a jew to enter the house of the gentile. yet he goes on to say God showed him it is okay today and Peter did enter preached what God wanted him to preach and saw the Holy Ghost descend on the gentile. Wow!!! Peter exclaims and adds water baptism to the scene Peters’ flesh again gets in the way, as when he denied Christ three times as when the Jews showed up he immediately acted as a jew, Peter from the flesh stand point was always looking for acceptance, this is what Paul rebuked him for, being a showman, Peter allowing his own flesh to get in the way just like most people today are doing, they just go along with whatever the group is doing to be accepted by that group. Paul wow is great in showing us all the differance of flesh and Spirit, and brother I agree it is very possible that the others were not preaching the gospel, for their flesh could get in the way, just as mine could too, along with any of you. So let just be thankful that Paul came along as God’s vessel to discern truth, killing our flesh daily by choice through beleif in Christ the finished work, the death to a new covenant, to the ressurection where we are at now from belief, unto the ascencion for without this there would be no Holy Ghost to indwell anyone today and without being indwelt we are none of God’s. You point out well that the other disciples were not preaching the whole truth, but there is no actual recordation that they were not, just a lead up to this and conjecture takes over and the word ends up not divided correctly.
            This is what i hear from God, God sent Paul who was Saul out of due time to bring the gospel to the gentile race in order to make his first chosen jealous, for the first chosen received the oracles from God through Moses the law, and have never been able to obey them 100%. That they took the law so literal that they stumbled over the stone (Christ Jesus)that they continued to refuse as their savior, then when they did they added to the gospel by saying one must be circumcised, the twelve preached truth to them, some accepted and others just added to it, confusing the truth of the gospel, when Paul came on the scene it was time to reveal to the gentiles the truth that the other 12 were doing their job through the Holy Ghost, telling them about Christ daily, but they were only going to the first chosen. But God said it many times that his chosen are a stubborn people and just do not listen to truth. So even though the disciples spent day and night telling the first chosen of their Messiah they did not listen, and continued to mix law and grace if at all any of them came to belief, we have no recordation of that. We do however have the recordation of Paul and the other disciples shaking hands, saying to Paul you go ahead onto the gentiles and we will continue here.
            So how can you say they were not preaching the truth? you have no actual recordation what exactly they were preaching in the synogogue to the first chosen
            Thanks you all for this great dsiscussion

  14. Brett,

    As far as the five thousand were concerned, I think that by reading the context in the previous chapter, you can answer your own question as to which gospel they responded to. The verse you’re talking about is in Acts 4:4. It reads, “However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.” What was the word that they believed? All you need to do is go back to Peter’s sermon starting in Acts 3:12. You’ll find it strikingly similar to the address he gave at Pentecost and it’s even more Jewish in content.

    Concerning Cornelius and his household, I’m sure you’d agree that this was a dramatic change from what happened at Pentecost. In Acts 2:38, Peter preached a message of repentance and baptism and THEN the Holy Spirit came upon the JEWS. Here, in Acts 10:44, God intervened and interrupted Peter before repentance and baptism could take place and the Holy Spirit came upon the GENTILES for the first time. Believers today underestimate the significance of this event. This was quite shocking to Peter and his fellow Jews because what took place was not in the same order that they had previously witnessed (repentance-baptism-Holy Spirit). That’s why Peter offered to water baptize them AFTER the Spirit came upon them. It wasn’t that Peter was acting in the flesh, as has been stated during this discussion. It was simply all he knew, and all he was supposed to know.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Acts is a book of transition from the kingdom gospel, preached by Peter and the twelve after receiving their marching orders from the resurrected, but still EARTHLY Christ, to the gospel of grace revealed to Paul by the ascended, and HEAVENLY, Jesus. After the mystery was revealed, there was obviously some overlap between the two programs, which is why we can’t take Acts as a doctrinal book for today. The fact that Cornelius and his household were not Jews (Acts 10:28), or even proselytes, leads me to believe that they would not be part of the future earthly kingdom, but would rather become part of the Body of Christ. Scripture, however, is not entirely clear on this.

    Finally, when was the last time you talked with someone who admittedly said that they were saved by Peter’s “repent and be baptized” message? The final question you posed was a hypothetical one at best. You and I both know that we’re saved by believing in Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. Most Christians don’t stop to think that this message was directly revealed to and later first proclaimed by Paul alone, to the Gentiles, who as aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, previously had no hope (Eph 3:12).

    • DERON ARE YOU SAYING THESE ARE JUST MORE JEWS ADDED TO THERE NUMBER AND HAVE NOT HEARD THE SAVING GOSPEL OF CHRIST WHICH WAS BEING PREACHED BY THE TWELVE? I’M NOT ASKING FOR MY SELF LOOKING FOR THE KNOWLEDGE AND WE ARE NOT IN NEED OF OPINION BUT ONE DIRECTED PERSONALLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    • well put.. i couldn’t have said it any better. i wasn’t sure which group BRETT was refering too? i think we have answered all questions that have been submitted to us..

      • RICK GREAT CONVERSATION, MATE, BUT YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED ALL THE QUESTION RATHER YOU’VE JUST ADDED MORE TO YOU COMMENTARY.

        • sorry brett but i disagree with you on that. we have answered all the questions put to us.. will be responding to bob’s latest response…though we have answered it already previously..i just don’t think you like the answers given and are unwilling to accept them..so the problem lies with you..it’s ok as i have stated before this stuff is new to your ears and probably hard to accept.. peter had the same response with paul.. 2pet3:15-16… stated this one many times already.. don’t know how Bob can say what he put down since peter obviously had a problem with paul’s gospel.. he was also rebuked by paul as well.. so the question to you is how can that be so if they were saying the same thing??

          • RICK ALL THE QUESTIONS ASK OF YOU ARE IN THE LISTINGS OF THIS BLOG AND THEY ALL DID NOT GET ANSWERED,MATE. I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE FACT I DON’T AGREE WITH YOU. IT’S NOT HARD ACCEPTING OR REJECTING YOUR CEMETERY TEACHING OR THOUGHT PATTERN, IT NOT TAUGHT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AS TO HIS WORD NOR WORK. GREAT CONVERSATION THOUGH IT’S GOOD FOR ME IN KNOWING WHO I AM AND WHOSE I AM.

          • Brett , tell me what we have not answered for you?? so we agree that there is no need for water baptism correct?? as for Howard’s most recent claim that john said there was no need for water baptism in acts 5?? i do find it peculiar that peter and the other 12 apostles say that Christ was exalted with His right hand to a Prince and a saviour for to give repentence to ISRAEL ,and forgiveness of sins acts 5:31.where are the gentiles in that verse? i dont see anything in that chapter that says water baptism is over.. can you enlighten this bible cemetarian?? AKA Icabod..

          • Rikck John did not say this in actsverse 5, luke recorded this, where john said this was in John 3
            27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
            Especially verse 30, but this section points out that John’s job, only purpose was to baptize Christ and announce the Jews Messiah has arrived, then water baptism is over and john must decrease while Christ increased, John only baptized with water and Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit with fire and this did not happen til the day of Pentecost.
            John 1:33
            I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

          • Rick the post are here from my beginning reply to Bob C. Blog and there are through out all the replies from all who have replied question as to your cemetery educating of this audience. You do the foot work here Mate. B.C. ask us a question that you cared not to answer for one instead came back with your Calvinist,Armenian or Liberal cemetery thinking. Check out what the Holy Spirit would have you comment. There also been questions from others here Mate hot just the ones I posed Mate. Go Fishing there out there Mate.

          • WOW the hosptility over there is amasing…. i don’t think Bob Bob and Bob trained you up that way though.. except i have heard bob george use the cemetary thing before when he thought someone’s theology was off and aquired thru a legalistic seminary… well its clear this is not a discussion you are able to handle yet.

          • Rick you are so sensitive when a nerve is hit. I am not sure about your Bob,Bob and Bob thing is in reference to but your jets seem to be heating up. I have been dealing with the seminary question for years and if the shoe fits walk in the cemetery and your trained from the grave mind. I got my training from the Holy Spirit after many dealing with gentlemen such as your self. You can not help yourself as you promote wrong understanding not dividing the word of truth. I know Bob and Bob and Richard through PTP internet radio. PTP does promote the TRUTH though being verified by rightly dividing the Word of Truth through the HOLY SPIRIT.

          • just stick to the biblical facts,,, your a little heated over there… i just remain on track with the word…

          • FOLLOW YOUR OWN ADVICE MATE, FOLLOW THE WORD AND STAY ON TRACK ACCORDING TO RICK, AYE MATE. OKAY

          • i have only preached to be established according to Paul’s gospel… romans 16:25…. that is exactly what Paul said.. it’s in your holman bible i am sure…. romans 2:16 .1 corinthians 4:16 be imitators of me (paul).not peter or the 12… i have been consistant with the word…. i don’t know how that makes me a liberal theologian or a bible cemetarian or a Jehovah witness???

          • Rick, I do not know what it makes you. I do know oyu are not seeing the tying together of scripture between Paul and the twelve. For some reason you are convinced that there are incongruities between them. There is onlyone God, one Faith, one Baptism, and the twelve believed along with Paul who was Saul. Are you saying that the twelve were like Saul and in agreement to steal, kill and destroy? For one is either for God or against God.Reading Scripture from John, Peter, James, I see in agreement with Paul, there are no incongruities there.
            Love u Rick, howard

          • By the way Mate it was you who brought up the “cemetery” in one of your earlier commentary replies.

          • yep Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour , Christ Jesus.. which will be the rapture and getting our glorified body.. its all part of the mystery that was given to paul directly from christ..

          • Rick i am just trying to follow your train of thought here
            So the twelve are not saved and do not have anything to say about truth, are you saying they do not have the Holy Ghost? And saying As you said That Paul learned from Christ himself behind the cloud as you so well elegantly put before. But Paul even said it no salvation without receiveing the Holy Ghost.
            So do you see the confusion. I agree with the Pauline gospel, it really lays out truth, but I could not understasnd it without the Holy Ghost. The same is with and for the rest of the disciples that we have recordings of in the cannon. All of them agree as one.
            Love u man Howard

          • Here is your verse claim of 2 peter 3:16-17 put in context brother. He says to you the ones reading his letter that Paul writes with things that are hard to understand to me, you and you over there, me and all that will listen, now watch out because Peter also warns us not to take it out of context see as in the whole meaning
            10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare

            11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

            14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

            17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
            Again the truth sets one free and if you , me or anyone else is in bondage then there is error in ones truth and one would need to rethink their truth that hteyu so stedfastly hold onto, Peter understood Pauls’ writings and at first were hard to understand I concur with this for it was hard for me to understand, only one baptism , one faith, one lord and sinc this is true there is only one gospel since there are not two lords pretty simple to me and I am thankful to God to stay steadfast in Christ through the Holy Ghost of fire that has burned out all my dross through me asking this to be so, that is what the fire is for

    • Deron a word of thought to you and all here you said
      You and I both know that we’re saved by believing in Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection
      none of us are saved without the Holy Ghost residing in each that believe, So I am pointing out to all that the ascencion need be included.
      Why because without the ascencion the holy Ghost would have never come: read it in John 16 where Jesus said this and to wait for this to come, proving flesh need be dead in the Spirit of one’s mind in order for others to convert to God the Father of Christ. Without the Holy Ghost’s leading all is dead no life
      Love ya! So we are saved by the death, burial, ressurection and ascencion in order for the Holy Ghost to come and indwell the believer
      Howard

      • True, without the ascension the Holy Spirit would not have come, but you do not need to believe in the ascension to be saved. In fact Paul explained that the gospel by which you are saved is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If anyone were to preach a gospel that differed from that, may he be eternally condemned. He went on to explain that if you add to the gospel you take away from it, you have perverted it so that it is no gospel at all.

        Believe in the death, burial and resurrection only and you will be saved. Remember, Jesus said that whoever believed would not be condemned but whoever did not believe was condemned already, because they have not believed.

        • William, I am sorry you see this as adding to the gospel, truth is without Jesus’s ascenscion the Holy Ghost would have never come, Jesus’s own words not Pauls’. John 16:
          I am not adding to the gospel, if I , you or anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, we are none of christs’ Scripture declares this.

          The Work of the Holy Spirit

          5 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

          12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

          • Again, I am not saying the ascension of Jesus was not necessary for salvation, Jesus told us that if He did not go away the Holy Spirit would not come. Since it is the Holy Spirit dwelling in us that saves us, no one would be saved as long as Jesus was here.

            What I am saying is that it is not necessary to BELIEVE in the ascension to be saved. It is necessary to BELIEVE in the death, burial and resurrection to be saved. Therefore, if anyone teaches that it IS necessary to believe in the ascension, in addition to the death burial and resurrection, then they are adding to the gospel, which perverts it, making it no gospel at all.

            I hope that clarifies what I am saying.

          • good point howard,,,, i agree with you on that 1corinthians 15:1-4,,, this different than acts 2:38 5:31. bottom line is we are saved by faith alone if we believe.

          • amen to that,,, its part of our progressive revelation,,, not in the liberal sense but as a progression just like from adam ,abraham,moses the prophets , then paul. God slowly revealed himself over the centuries….

          • Rick thanks, I see the stuborness and thought patterns of the twelve, it is hard to toss everything one has learned from birth on, it is hard to die to ones flesh, it takes practice each day dying daily to flesh in ones mind, seeing you are only alive in the Spirit of God and that their is nothing more for you to do, except believe, trust and god will do whatever work needed through you in you so you just sit back and relax and watch God move and have your being in action as God sees fit, not man
            Howard

          • notice christ kept paul seperate from them? he had little to do with them and it blew me away in galatians 2 were peter became afraid of james and his rebuke because he was hanging with the gentiles and using the liberty that we have been given from the law,,, peter the one that christ said thou art the rock and upon this rock i will build my church (not the body of christ) and here he is being afraid of james.. james had taken over the jerusalem church.

          • thanks howard. for years i suspected there were differences from what jeus was saying during his earthly ministry compared with what he was saying thru paul. but i never questioned it,, then one day it all came to a head when i was in a little church in moscow russia and the pastor was talking from mathew 6:14-15 for give and you shall be forgiven.. i knew then there was really something wrong because paul says in ephesians 4:32forgive as you have already been forgiven,,,,there is a HUGE difference between those verses… later i realised that jesus’ earthly ministry was under the law for jew only galatians 4:4 and matthew 10:5-6 15:24.why do you think that jesus called the syro phoenician woman a dog??? she wasn’t jewish,,, yet by faith she knew her position in the pecking order and that God’s covenants were with the house of Israel only. jesus didnt come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He taught under moses’s administration.. if we didnt have paul’s letters we would not know that we were no longer under law but grace. everything in acts from chapter 1 to chapter 10 was still israel and still under the law,,, look at Ananias , a disciple ,the man that baptised Paul,, he was a DEVOUT MAN ACCORDING TO THE LAW acts 22:12 . bet you didn’t see that one before?… you have to see that God shut down the prophetic program for israel and put it aside on hold and started a secret program thru the apostle PAUL. ephesians 3:1-12.. the word is dispensation or administration but the greek word is OIKONOMIA from which we get the word economy… the word means household management like between an owner and manager..God changed management programs.. this why Peter and the 12 had a hard time with what paul was preaching becasue they only knew that Jews were #1 in God’s pecking order just like the syro phoenician woman knew her place too. that is why peter wrote in 2 peter 3:15-16 that his epistles were scriptural but hard to understand. it was hard to accept god changing management programs. I hope that God helps you to see this so you can unerstand why there is only one hope one baptism and one faith..its all according to Paul’s gospel.

          • Yes Rick Jesus taught under law to full fill the law in order to bring in a new covenant. Matthew 5:17, then when it was filled he yelled it is finidhed from the cross and gave up the Ghost, John 19:30, this is where the new covenat began, for Israel, the first Chosen, Hebrews 9:15-17, and Paul did not write Hebrews, no one knoows who wrote Hebrews. Yet here it is undere a new covenant,for Israel, and the rest of all humans. God gave them a new way a new life and there were many converts from God through the Holy Ghost prior to Paul and God wanted Peter to bring the truth to the Gentile and Peter did yet still did not fully understand for whatever reason. God brought the grace that God had already poured on the jews to the gentile as well making both one, So this part I do not agree with you on. You used old testament scripture in the new testament. All scripture in the new testament prior to the death of Christ is a part of the old testament law. Rick I follow to the point that the disciples had trouble with transition with a fight of flesh and Spirit of truth
            as all believers do, but those that desire to know God shall know him by faith in him, and the Holy Spirit directs that man. And The Holy Ghost directed the disciples yet they did not always listen and or understand just like you and me, along with the rest ofthe world today. Today There is no jew, no greek, no female,no male, no gentile we are all one, to seperate them is not of God. Yet Thank you Rick for your input. I do not have itchy ears, Howard

        • William with out the Holy Ghost truth would not be revealed to you, me or anyone. THe Holy Ghost is a part of salvation no matter which way it is sliced, diced or cubed.
          Which i see you coming back with along with Rick, slicing, dicing and cubing, The foundation cannot be changed, the death for the new covenant can not be changed, the ressurection cannnot be changed, The Holy Ghost that came on the day of Pentecost cannot be changed, and without the ascencion cannot be changed, where Christ sent us the Holy Ghost of promise. If we had not received this Holy Ghost then who has not is not saved period.

  15. I guess the question on the table now concerns whether or not there is just one Gospel or two. I will say up front, I think the Bible speaks of only one, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Peter introduced it to the world the day of Pentecost. His sermon is about Jesus, his death, burial (implied), resurrection and ascension into heaven. He does not mention the kingdom. You may point to 2:30 as a kingdom message reference, but taken in context, Peter used the prophecy to prove the resurrection.

    Did Peter fully understand all the implications of the Gospel message at that time? No. But he did know that Jesus was both Lord and Messiah, and that Jesus had poured out the Holy Spirit on those who believed.

    He preached the same message to Cornelius and his family. What we see in the first 10 chapters of Acts is the adding of Jew, Samaritan and Gentile to the body of Christ, the church. In the last half, we see Paul taking this message — the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ — beyond the borders of Israel.

    Paul confirms that his message was the same as Peter’s in Galatians 2:7. As the story goes, Paul traveled to Jerusalem to meet with the esteemed leaders to make sure the Gospel he was preaching was the right one. They added nothing to his message, nor did he add anything to theirs. They concluded that Paul was to take the good news to the Gentiles, and Peter to the Jews.

    Two notes of interest in this discussion that seemed to have been overlooked. (I have not read all the posts, so I may have missed where these were discussed.) The first is the fact Paul was water baptized. I mention this because throughout the posts, water baptism seems to be the line of demarcation between the kingdom message and the Gospel message. If so, which message was given to Paul on the road to Damascus and later by Ananias. It is also interesting to see that immediately Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God, the exact same focus Peter had at Pentecost.

    The next are Paul’s final words to the Ephesian elders — “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again” Acts 20:25. What did preaching the kingdom entail? I think Paul’s letter to the Ephesians answers. All the apostles had messed up ideas about the kingdom. they were merely echoing what they had been taught by their forefathers until the Spirit revealed the truth to them.

    I wanted to weigh in on this discussion. The posts I have read have been very interesting, and I do appreciate the spirit in which they have been offered. If we are going to converse through writing about the grace of God, it makes sense that we treat each other accordingly.

    So one last question. Do we have to be water baptized to be saved? :)

    • THANKS BOB FOR THE INSIGHTFUL INSIGHT AS TO PAUL BEING BAPTIZED. THIS HAS BEEN A GOOD DISCUSSION WHERE GOOD POINTS ARE BROUGHT UP YET MANY QUESTIONS THAT HAVE GONE OUT ARE FOR OBVIOUS REASON NEVER ANSWERED. AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION AT HAND ABOUT ONE BEING ABLE TO BE SAVED WITHOUT WATER BAPTISM, ABSOLUTELY YES.

    • thanks for the reply Bob.. will review it more thoroughly and reply.. amasing this discussion has continued on so long but it is a really serious question for the body of christ..

    • It is only for a good conscience before God and you the believer, but unfortunately it is used for memebership a good will worship today
      John said He must decrease and Christ must increase, that john only baptised with water but Jesus baptised with the Holy Ghost and with fire. there is only one baptism today and the water baptism was only a shadow of the good things to come as was the law. The high priest before going into the holy of holies carryiing their sin and the sins of the people was water baptized first. This is why John the Baptist came to water baptize Jesus and when John did this as Jesus told John for now John needed to baptize him for he must do all that is right, John did and announced the Messiah had arrived, water baptism was over, John stated it, and in acts 5 this is confirmed before pentecost
      Howard

      • you know it is typical of the flesh to need , see, or have something tangible that it can wrap itself around hence Faith + works… paul’s gospel is just the opposite,,faith + nothing..

        • Hey Rick Paul’s and James explanation are not opposite as just just pointed to.
          Let me say this Faith in the Lord jesus Christ the finished work were Christ took all sin away in his Father’s sight John 1:29 the Father can now live in the believer as perfect through Christ Father’s Son in the form of the Holy Ghost , for Father can see no sin and because of Christ’s finished work at the cross Christ has condemned all sin to the flesh, and no flesh in Fathers sight will ever please Father the Son or the Holy Ghost. So therefore as Christ told Nicodemus one must be born again. And this is of the Spirit of God, dead to the flesh and alive to the Spirit of God, the very same Spirit that led Christ, has been sent through belief to all that believe with a true motive of wanting to know God period. James brings home faith + works, think about this Abraham was there works in his faith. So the ? is what produces what? Does works produce faith? no way for works always reckons a reward. So it must be that faith in God, true faith that is produces works. Now the ? is who’s works? By faith in Christ the finished work, the foundation one first dies to self, then by the operation of God one is revived made back alive as Christ also rose, then led by the Holy Ghost Romans 6, 7 and 8 so this is not human works it is God work’s were we the believers are rested as in Hebrews 3 and 4 explains.
          So if I have Faith and no works to flow with that faith, my faith is dead. Now i could have works and say it is my faith that produced it which is what is happening today many fakers with lots of fruit on their trees while my tree might only have one piece of fruit. A lot of fake fruit out there, manifesting as if they are good, but God knows who they are and God is Patient to bringing in the sheep, what a loviing God we have, for we all deserve death so why not today reckon ourselves dead to the flesh Romans 6:11 and comne alive to the Spirit of God, and die daily this way. Still only one gospel. Faith is dead without God works’ as God stands at judgement and says go away you who work iniquity, I God speaking never knew you, as that one that day says but God I did this in your name and that. I am only responsible for me as the ten vuirgin parable explains well. I have in life had enough of my oil stolen in the past to know to say go and get your own, my oil lamp is full, and am waiting for the second coming Love you
          Howard

    • No, you do not need to be water baptized to be saved. In fact, the word of God tells the story of Paul meeting a group of believers that not only had not received the Holy Spirit, (were not saved), they had never even heard that there was a Holy Spirit. Paul asked them what baptism they had received and they responded John’s baptism. John’s baptism was with water and yet they were not saved. Paul explained to them that John told the people to believe in the one that was coming after him, that is Jesus. Upon hearing this they received the Spirit and were saved.

      In fact the word says that they were baptized, (with the Holy Spirit), into the name of Jesus Christ. There was no need to get dunked in water again, there was only the need to be placed in the body of Christ.

      • great point but lets be careful to not build doctrine out of acts.. it is a transitional book more than a doctrinal book… transition from jew only to jew and gentile being equal… i see people deceived nowadays that jews have some secret access and advantage to God over us with such things as saying the name of jesus correctly or their prayer shawls or today i saw one talk about having the rams horn and secrets of it and how it can help you to access god… anyone that understands galatians knows these little things are perverting paul’s gospel and deceiving the body of christ…

        • Yes Rick, even the gentile is doing this same thing today, even though gentile was never given law to begin with, a lot of the gentile has gone over to the jew and have taken their law, used it in our gatherings spoiled it ripped the clothes that they put on from the jews, that where already ripped.Making a mock of the gospel. The law rips, tears and destroys a persons’ flesh, and I say halleluah, for without the flesh being destroyed there is no life here and now abundantly even if i were homeless here on the earth once the flesh is destroyed it does not matter whether one is homeless any longer, one’s home is heaven

        • Rick I think I just caught it. Is it that you are against the Jews that do not believe in Christ, have not repented from the law or say they believe yet have not repented from the law? If so brother, the twelve did repent to God and spoke truth from the Holy Ghost that resided in them from the day of Pentecost

          • howard the 12 were preaching baptism and repentence for the house of israel.. they rejected the gospel of the Kingdom of heaven being offered to them. the messiah and the prophets told them this.. their objection as a nation continued on with the stoning of stephen in acts 7 …then you see a transition towards the gentile with conversion of paul…God sets him apart and gives him an administration.. household management. ephsians 3:1-12 ,, the word is dispensation.means household management from the greek word oikonmia.the mystery.gotta run have things to do…

          • By conjecture of what you read into from what scripture says you have added to it. You might be right but there is no proof that they did not preach truth, they did water baptise yes and they were straightened out for this, but they did not lose salvation form this, nor has anyone else that coupled it with belief in Christ and the finished work. Water baptism still goes on today and the people that do believe in Christ are saved from belief in him whether they are water baptised or not, for when they believed in christ they were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise eph 1:13 Now if I go off on this tangent as i think you have, then how far shall you or I go as far as to say that if I get water baptized and believe in christ and receive the Holy Ghost then am saved or not, of course I would be, but if i do not get water baptised and the rest is true with me, then I am also saved. Also did not Ananias water baptise Paul after the road o damascus.You see water baptism today is not a salvation issue it is a good conscience to God from you the receiver, yet to me in private not public.
            Whether water baptised or not as you say the 12 were doing and doing it they were I agree but it did not annul salvation and does not annul salvation to this day what the only thing that keeps one from salvation is unbelief, if one changes ones mind from unbelief to belief they are saved and have a lot to learn in this new life, as to where Paul from god had to come on the scene and those twelve agreed with Paul about the Gospel one only gospel revealed to them and all that will listen to the spirit of God. Water Baptism has surely not stopped in the world today and is of a good will worship either to show off the church one is baptised in or a good conscience towards God. it all boils down to the meaning, one’s motive, that is what God himself will judge you, me and all others from is your, my motive behind why we are so stubborn to convince others what we see. I see after it all three things remain Faith, Hope and Love, out of these love goes on forever, these things we are discussing will soon disappear, tongues, baptism, prophecy, and so forth will all disappear, but love will go on forever
            Love u Rick I would like to put this to bed now hoping you are willing and we go onward to continue to grow in love for one another as Christ has already shown his love to the whole world, let us show this through us. I agree to disagree on this subject it is not an eternal issue for me, or for you or for anyone that comes to salvation here and now, as you so well said it is the death, burial and ressurection that people today need to hear not arguments over whether the twelve were under grace or law.
            Thanks in advance for putting this to bed
            Love Howard

          • Howard ,i have a hard time following your argument. please write your point in just a paragraph. how can you say it is conjecture when mat 10:5-6, 15:24,, zech 8:23 acts 5:31 , acts 15:1-6 all teach that it is israel and jew only.. peter is amased in acts 10 that the holy spirit even came to the gentiles!!! if they were gentiles at pentacost that received the holy spirit then why would he be amased at this clear in acts 10????the council at acts 15 was to determine if the gentiles should observe the law.hence ,they were still observing the law…..
            peter and paul were not preaching the same gospel.. the kingdom gospel has been put on a temporary hold..now is the gospel of grace and the body of christ.. the kingdom gospel will resume after the body of christ is removed and God will then put the jews back on top and fulfill all prophecy…

          • Rick, do you know why elephants paint their toe nails red? To hide in Cherry trees
            Scripture is not read in context any more today it is picked from this verse to that verse, to that one, and coming up with theology, it is picking choice cherries to bring home a theology. Do you know how the religous leaders got killed? PICKING CHERRIES!
            There is no where in the word that states exactly word for word what you are saying, the cherries you have picked do lead to the theology you described and well points the way you say. And until I hear from the Holy Ghost on this matter as when I need to know it as truth or not is not an issue for me right now in my walk, this is what I am told in my heart for now.
            Remember this as well had the devil known what the crucifixion would have done and actually did the devil would have never encouraged the religous leaders to do away with Christ, yet though the prince of this world has been judged, stripped of his weapons, toothless, defeated, his goods taken back that he stole in the beginning, namely mankind. You see Rick yes the Jews still taught under the law, but the twelve did not, and water baptism was new it was not to the public in the old it was to the levitical priesthood only the high priest. today the high priest is Jesus forever and ever. Thanks Rick iappreciate you oyu have caused me to study as i already like you as well
            Howard

          • howard i agree with you to some extent,so much on tv comes from one verse or two taken out of context or without recognising the differences of what was for israel and what is for the body of christ. but how can you say that when in acts 15 they(12) were still trying to determine if the gentiles should observe the law???? peter sided with paul on the matter.that was because of the vision he had back in acts 10 with the unclean foods..paul wasn’t one of those 12 by the way. why were men from james comin to the galatians and spying out their liberty?? even barnabas was carried away by it… read it,,, galatians chapter 2.why were people of the circumcision still trying to put the galatians back under the law?? it still goes on today.. compare scripture with scripture..

          • Rick I am following you on this, waht I am not sure and do not think these spies were from the twelve were any of the twelve themselves. Now it is possible at first this was as Peter decided and agreed with Paul then the others did as well,the twelve and Paul came to agreement shook hands in agreement and yes said the gentiles must obstain from, wow they at tthis time in context were actually mixing Law and grace, whew, this is how it came over to us the gentiles. but it shows they understood grace in full as when one reads 1John where he says I write to you little children because your sins are forgiven. James brings home one can’t just say they have faith without the faith having results of works, not law this would be God works through you, John himself in John 15 expands on Faith, one is saved and by faith one abides in the vine. they all in the cannon show flowing together after they also understood what Paul was saying and in Hebrews no one knows the actual author, but I say the author of the whole is God in greek origin, is the only inherent truth, and there are a lot of changes in the translations to steer man under man as it was when Jesus walked here in the physical, and the religous leaders and saducees came against Jesus. It appears that it took awhile for the twelve to come to total truth, for I know they believed. Wow!!! I see now, and I see they came to truth, just like anyone today, down in everyone they know God is real. For it says all will know me (God) speaking form the least to the greatest. I do believe that the disciples were straightened out to the truth thank God for willing vessels. And thank god God is faithful while we are not, just learning to let go and let God. We are creatures of habit that did become characteristics and then traits in us as Paul had. No wonder it took 14 years to come to them Saul who became Paul had a lot of unlearning to do while the new had to take place
            Thanks Howard

  16. Again Rick you assume much about me and my training which you have no insight. I have heard several of Bob Georges messages and have read one of his books. My introduction to PTP was after Mr.George had his stroke last February. If you want to make such a judgement
    about me based on these several months being around there teaching then all I can say it’s been rather effective in the time you have reference of. No Rick your flesh has gotten the best of you here. Mate you really need to dig a little dipper in you Seminary training for this discussion since the only true insight has to come by way the Holy Spirit Mate.

  17. Baptists and evangelicals are absolutely correct…there is no SPECIFIC mention in the New Testament that the Apostles baptized infants. There are references to entire households being converted and baptized, but we orthodox cannot prove, just from Scripture, that these households had infants, and neither can Baptists and evangelicals prove, just from Scripture, that they did not.

    One interesting point that Baptists/evangelicals should note is that although there is no specific mention of infant baptism in the Bible…neither is there a prohibition of infant baptism in the Bible. Christians are commanded by Christ to go into all the world and preach the Gospel and to baptize all nations. No age restrictions are mentioned. If Christ had intended his followers to understand that infants could not be baptized in the New Covenant, in a household conversion process as was the practice of the Jews of Christ’s day in converting Gentile households to the Covenant of Abraham, it is strange that no mention is made of this prohibition.

    So, the only real way to find out if Infant Baptism was practiced by the Apostles is to look at the writings of the early Christians, some of whom were disciples of the Apostles, such as Polycarp, and see what they said on this issue.

    And here is a key point: Infant Baptism makes absolutely no sense if you believe that sinners can and must make an informed, mature decision to believe in order to be saved. Infants cannot make informed, mature decisions, so if this is the correct Doctrine of Justification/Salvation, Infant Baptism is clearly false teaching. But the (arminian) Baptist/evangelical Doctrine of Justification/Salvation is unscriptural. Being forced to make a decision to obtain a gift, makes the gift no longer free. This is salvation by works.

    Baptism is a command of God. It is not a work of man. God says in plain, simple language, in multiple locations in the Bible, that he saves/forgives sins in Baptism. We orthodox Christians accept God’s literal Word. We take our infants to be baptized because God says to do it. Our infants are not saved because we perform the act of bringing them to the baptismal font…they are saved by the power of God’s Word pronounced at the time of the Baptism. Christians have believed this for 2,000 years!

    There is no evidence that any Christian in the early Church believed that sinners are saved by making a free will decision and then are baptized solely as a public profession of faith. None.

    Gary
    Luther, Baptists, and Evangelicals

  18. Water baptism is not necessary. It does not save anyone.

    In Acts and 19 Paul comes across some disciples. He asks them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They said they never heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul asked them what baptism they had received. They replied John’s baptism

    Now John’s baptism was with water yet they had not received the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Holy Spirit is what saves you.

    No Spirit, no salvation.

    After Paul told them about Jesus, they were baptized spiritually into the body of Christ and were saved.

  19. Water baptism is not necessary. It does not save anyone.

    In Acts and 19 Paul comes across some disciples. He asks them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They said they never heard of the Holy Spirit. Paul asked them what baptism they had received. They replied John’s baptism

    Now John’s baptism was with water yet they had not received the Holy Spirit. Receiving the Holy Spirit is what saves you.

    No Spirit, no salvation.

    After Paul told them about Jesus, they were baptized spiritually into the body of Christ and were saved.

  20. And there is no specific mention as to wajt type of Babtism when he said go forth and Babtize, it is not said which type, water or Spirit

    I think and believe Spirit for Johjn trul only Babtized with water for repentance, and was actually looking for Jesus to Babtize and even said that He (John) needed Babtozed from Jesus. John also said the he (water) Babtism must decrease and Spiritual Babtism from Christ must increase. And in eph it states there is only one Babtism. So whic h is it water or Spirit?
    Ephesians 4:5

    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

    Acts 1:5

    for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    John 3:30

    He must increase, but I must decrease.

    Matthew 3:11

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Luke 3:16

    John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Water Babtism is of the flesh wanting to serve God, and Holy Ghost Babtism is of God and from God through the cross

    John 3:5

    Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6

    That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

  21. And there is no specific mention as to wajt type of Babtism when he said go forth and Babtize, it is not said which type, water or Spirit

    I think and believe Spirit for Johjn trul only Babtized with water for repentance, and was actually looking for Jesus to Babtize and even said that He (John) needed Babtozed from Jesus. John also said the he (water) Babtism must decrease and Spiritual Babtism from Christ must increase. And in eph it states there is only one Babtism. So whic h is it water or Spirit?
    Ephesians 4:5

    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

    Acts 1:5

    for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    John 3:30

    He must increase, but I must decrease.

    Matthew 3:11

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Luke 3:16

    John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Water Babtism is of the flesh wanting to serve God, and Holy Ghost Babtism is of God and from God through the cross

    John 3:5

    Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6

    That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.